Infantry, Helicopters

[Apocalypse 31]

11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Why aren't you making some more for the public?

Infantry = broke

Helicopters = broke

 

There's only so many scenarios I can make with tanks attacking into open areas to clear out other armored vehicles. <Yawn>

[Volcano]

Infantry broke? LOL, OK.  I have played and also created many infantry heavy (and even some infantry only) scenarios and it can be quite fun. Is it ARMA? No, but it can still be fun and interesting, depending on what you are expecting of them.  Not intended as an insult, or invitation to unload on the infantry issues -- everyone knows of their short comings. No, I am simply saying that "broke" is a exaggeration, given that I have seen plenty of scenarios that rely heavily on infantry that are fun (which is the topic of this thread - scenario creation). That is not to say that infantry cannot be continually improved though, and I am all for that! 😎

 

Now helicopters... that is another matter, yes, you cannot rely on them much in a scenario at a moment - they need work before we can have helicopter heavy, or helicopter only scenarios. Helicopters should be a small supporting component of a scenario, but then again, I have played several scenarios that have transport helos and one or two attack helos for support, and they work, but certainly anything larger that that is not good.

[Apocalypse 31]

2 hours ago, Volcano said:

depending on what you are expecting of them

Combat...REAL combat and fighting revolves around the infantry. In every war that has been and for every war that will become - infantry will be the centerpiece of fighting. Seizing and retaining ground will always be an objective, and the infantry is every army's best tool for that task.  

 

What I expect for scenario design in SB: Producing scenarios that can realistically depict combat, as described above.

 

What I get for scenario design in SB: Infantry that can't do infantry things and attack helicopters that can't do attack helicopter things. So it all just boils down to tanks fighting tanks, because nothing else works as it does in real life. As I said above, there are only so many 73 Easting style battles that I can create without getting bored of even designing them. 

 

Nobody is asking for ARMA. In fact, I'm waiting to uninstall ARMA - I just need a game (either DCS or SB) to develop even a primitive infantry model and I will forever uninstall ARMA from my hard drive. 

[Volcano]

Everyone wants that, who doesn't? And yet, people still find a way to make good scenarios, given the limitations. 

 

Look, I want better infantry and helicopters, perhaps even more than you do (I complain about it enough) - but I am just saying that this is all entirely subjective, and there is enough to work with. Now if the infantry didn't load into the PCs, or got stuck on all the buildings and walls, and you couldn't use ATGM or MGs (all like they all used to), then yes, I would say they are "broke".  But I do hope we will get more and more infantry and helicopter improvements - there are certainly ideas and desires (not trying to downplay the need for further improvements).

[Grenny]

5 hours ago, Volcano said:

Everyone wants that, who doesn't? And yet, people still find a way to make good scenarios, given the limitations. 

 

Look, I want better infantry and helicopters, perhaps even more than you do (I complain about it enough) - but I am just saying that this is all entirely subjective, and there is enough to work with. Now if the infantry didn't load into the PCs, or got stuck on all the buildings and walls, and you couldn't use ATGM or MGs (all like they all used to), then yes, I would say they are "broke".  But I do hope we will get more and more infantry and helicopter improvements - there are certainly ideas and desires (not trying to downplay the need for further improvements).

Yes there are options to make scenarios beyond tank vs tank.

There are harder to make then the above.. tough. And in sce design one has to consider that several aspects of infantry don't work exactly how RL does...

- engaging targets sometimes esp. with AT weapons, seem very random and you have no real player control over it

- they don't use diffenrt stances to fire their weapons (AT weapons from the prone? rifles kneeling or standing? ...would be nice)

- infantry don't use fire+movment on their own, and as player you can not realy make them

- cover and concealment is limited (altough I have to say the Weserbergland-"rough" map with added noise is a step into the right direction)

 

So saying the infantry is "broke", is not true...still there challenges.

 

Similar are the issues wth helicopters...

So far they are ok-ish as targets for the tank/IFV gunners...and thats about it 😉

[Grenny]

PS.: I for example now resort to using "split" missions

With the tanks tasked to attack enemy in the northeast, while the Jäger-companie retakes 2 crossing points...

 

Works only in MP tough,  IMO

 

[Lumituisku]

I wrote this earlier in reply but didn't send it as i thought it should be send somewhere else. 

 

Thanks for splitting thread btw. 

 

---

 

do you mean as what i feel about infantry in sb = too slow and gets bogged down way too much. where it either does next to impossible and deadly precice snapshots wit rpgs on the open or far more often bogs down in presence of afvs on terrain where it should do well but doesn't and becomes just a bunch of sitting dugs... as a new guy so recently complained to me about how uninteresting fighting against even scripted infantry often is? 

 

 

 

as for attack helicopters... i recently played very old mission with helos and expected those to be helpless as before. turns out that simply changing flight height to tree top made those deadly. and immersive against fully crewed player leopards. while supporting ai t72s, casually tracked and shot those down one by one

 

 

 

infantry has gotten soo much better over the years. it is much more enjoyable to play and as enemy than it was. but it is i reliable to script because it doesn't act like afvs on sb. it doesn't move forward to find hull down facing the direction. it it's terrible at execution of route script. what is like... is that infantry squad behave like tank platoon to maintain visual contact or to move to engage nearby enemies that cannot be seen. and to run... when given order to retreat instead of sitting still.   or move up to find line of fire if told to engage and unable to do so from spot instead of bogging down to be killed once spotted. 

 

[Apocalypse 31]

I don't know why this was broken out into a new thread. 

 

I was providing a simple answer to a simple question. There's nothing further to discuss about infantry or helicopters that hasn't been raised for years. 

[Michael Ramsey]

On 6/11/2021 at 6:05 PM, Apocalypse 31 said:

Combat...REAL combat and fighting revolves around the infantry. In every war that has been and for every war that will become - infantry will be the centerpiece of fighting. Seizing and retaining ground will always be an objective, and the infantry is every army's best tool for that task.  

 

What I expect for scenario design in SB: Producing scenarios that can realistically depict combat, as described above.

 

What I get for scenario design in SB: Infantry that can't do infantry things and attack helicopters that can't do attack helicopter things. So it all just boils down to tanks fighting tanks, because nothing else works as it does in real life. As I said above, there are only so many 73 Easting style battles that I can create without getting bored of even designing them. 

 

Nobody is asking for ARMA. In fact, I'm waiting to uninstall ARMA - I just need a game (either DCS or SB) to develop even a primitive infantry model and I will forever uninstall ARMA from my hard drive. 

Whether or not "REAL combat and fighting revolves around the infantry. In every war that has been and for every war that will become - infantry will be the centerpiece of fighting. Seizing and retaining ground will always be an objective, and the infantry is every army's best tool for that task" is debatable especially in todays environment. As a former tanker I can tell you that in most cases mounted warfare now rules the day (Personal Opinion).  In my day Armor would take the objective and hold it until the infantry arrived.  Regardless, if you look deep enough into the forums you may find some interesting methods to Infantry deployment, my favorite is dropping the ramp, deploying infantry while having the battle taxi follow them under the same command for example "Engage".  At the end of your route place the pc in a "Hold", at the point "Dismount troops" continue the route a short distance using "Engage", speed 10mph, embark if (Set to mision time 1.00) watch what happens.  

[Michael Ramsey]

On 6/11/2021 at 6:05 PM, Apocalypse 31 said:

Combat...REAL combat and fighting revolves around the infantry. In every war that has been and for every war that will become - infantry will be the centerpiece of fighting. Seizing and retaining ground will always be an objective, and the infantry is every army's best tool for that task.  

 

What I expect for scenario design in SB: Producing scenarios that can realistically depict combat, as described above.

 

What I get for scenario design in SB: Infantry that can't do infantry things and attack helicopters that can't do attack helicopter things. So it all just boils down to tanks fighting tanks, because nothing else works as it does in real life. As I said above, there are only so many 73 Easting style battles that I can create without getting bored of even designing them. 

 

Nobody is asking for ARMA. In fact, I'm waiting to uninstall ARMA - I just need a game (either DCS or SB) to develop even a primitive infantry model and I will forever uninstall ARMA from my hard drive. 

 

[iamfritz]

I discovered an exciting, new option using infantry.

 

I've always wanted to do a rescue type mission, like in John Antal's Proud Legions and Team Combat, using Bradleys, M-113s or UH-60s. I finally figured out how:

 

1-In the mission planner, I place the helos or IFVs at their starting place.

 

2-I dismount their infantry.

 

3-I select all the infantry, right click, and select "Move to..."

 

4-I move them far away. Into a forest, a town, a valley, something like that.

 

5-I randomly (or smartly) smatter enemy forces around and between my main force and them.

 

6- Mission Objective? Clear out enemy forces to roll in and extract the lost infantry.

 

7- If you don't protect your infantry carriers (IFVs or Helos) you can't rescue them all. Attack by ground forces has to be complete. Giving the enemy lots of infantry makes this SO tricky because of how they move around during engagements.

 

It makes battles so much more intense. Once "Taking fire" reports start coming in, you're listening much more intently, and babysitting the infantry carriers a lot more too.

 

My $.02.