Progress for Command Ops: "Battles for the Bulge"

[GH_Lieste]

I've been following this with interest over at Matrix, and it looks like a release is only a few months away now.

The problem of getting the AI to recognise when it needs to build a bridge and when a bypass is preferred has apparently been tamed.

Supply and weather are important new(ish) additions to the core engine as well. (Supply was already in COTA, but has been enhanced)

I'm definately planning to get this one when it is done.

[Mower]

I have played a board game or 2 over the years of this and, really, can the Germans ever hope to win...? The Allied airpower and fuel shortages combined with the hideous road net...well, a fool's dream?

[Volcano]

Here is an operational level Bulge game you should consider picking up:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/PZC/PZC_bulge/Bulge.html

...ignore the ugly graphics, those have long since been improved here:

www.volcanomods.com

[GH_Lieste]

Thanks VM, but it isn't the theatre that is most exciting about this one. The Included establishments should allow a reasonable basis for many other '44/'45 Western Front operations as well.

The bit that I enjoy about this series is the engine, with the focus on the decisions that need to be made as the situation develops rather than on moving lots of counters each turn.

[GH_Lieste]

I have played a board game or 2 over the years of this and, really, can the Germans ever hope to win...? The Allied airpower and fuel shortages combined with the hideous road net...well, a fool's dream?

Maybe not overall, but the level of command isn't OKW.

You may be attempting to break through a defended river line, exploit to secure a main crossing in the Allied rear, destroy a pocket of resistance while screening other threats, extract your forces and delay the allied advance, etc.

You can win or lose each of these regimental/Divisional/Corps objectives while still not having a real chance of significant results from the overall offensive.

[Volcano]

Thanks VM, but it isn't the theatre that is most exciting about this one. The Included establishments should allow a reasonable basis for many other '44/'45 Western Front operations as well.

The bit that I enjoy about this series is the engine, with the focus on the decisions that need to be made as the situation develops rather than on moving lots of counters each turn.

Well, it is an ongoing series that currently consists of:

NORMANDY '44

SMOLENSK '41

KHARKOV '42

TOBRUK '41

BULGE '44

KORSUN '44

KURSK '43

SICILY '43

RZHEV '42

MARKET-GARDEN '44

EL AlAMEIN '42

FRANCE '40

SALERNO '43

MOSCOW '41

STALINGRAD '42

MINSK '44

BUDAPEST '45

You would be hard pressed to find this level of detail in a similar battalion and company level game of the period, much less games that cover many of these battles. I have played these "real time" Matrix Games before and they just aren't my cup o' tea. Oh well, it is the whole turn based vs. "real time" preference of course, but I do like to play both.

[andym]

If you want a REALLY good game then look no further than John Tillers Campaign Series.It has Western and eastern front and Pacific war sceanrios and campaigns.In the pipeline is a Korea,Viet Nam mod and later on a Modern era/cold war mod.But THE scenario to beat ALL has to be Balcks Operation Overlord.It has over 1200 moves and covers the WHOLE geographical area!!I am currently about 30% through the 2 turn!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[dmagnusson]

The Operational art of war 3 is nice to

[GH_Lieste]

Those are all 'move one of a thousand counters at a time' each and every turn for 100s of turns type games.. Which just does not very much for me.

I can't see many occasions where a commander would be interested in the actions of units two or more levels below his level of command, and if he were it would be transient, rare and for a specific reason.

At Brigade level you would predominantly be moving your forces as Btn task forces, with some interest in the performance of critical companies. At Division level you would be interested in rgt or bde, with some thought for the requirements of critical btn missions.

The AI routines in BFTB, COTA and the other games in this series allows you to specify almost all your orders at these two levels below 'your' HQ, without compromising the general performance of your forces - administrative advances, redeployment in covered terrain/out of effective fire, fire and manouver and regrouping either on the objective or for the purposes of a second effort if the first attack is repulsed will all be handled as appropriate within the parameters specified in your tasking order.

Friction, supply, fatigue and morale are highly important and you need to be careful to not press too hard, too fast and for too long, especially in the longer operational phases.

[Crimguy]

Volcano and all:

Just was directed to this thread. I'm a fan of the HPS titles and Panther Games Airborne Assault series. They are frankly two completely different animals. HPS is great for a pbem challenge, and the unit detail and operational scope is impressive, but the AI of Panther's titles can't be beat. Not to mention that HPS could use an interface overhaul. Keep in mind that Matrix is more of a producer than game developer, so it's pretty difficult to lump all their titles into one heap.

I love your mod work Volcano, btw!

[Koen]

GH_Lieste,

BFTB and COTA look intriguiging indeed.

But don't you miss the 3D-environment as in SB ?

In SB I play often from the map - but a look at the terrain is also fun.

In other words, inbetween giving orders, what keeps you busy in COTA ?

And how do you get a feeling of immersion, if there are only mapsymbols you can look at ?

Just curious - I'm looking a long time already at this series. But these questions (and also the price a bit) hold me back.

THX !

Koen

[GH_Lieste]

GH_Lieste,

BFTB and COTA look intriguiging indeed.

But don't you miss the 3D-environment as in SB ?

In SB I play often from the map - but a look at the terrain is also fun.

In other words, inbetween giving orders, what keeps you busy in COTA ?

You can identify your next set of objectives, determine likely jumping off points, routes, supply route security, monitor general or specific progress, assess threat capabilities, and probabl intentions, and ensure that you have adequate contingencies to counter them.

The basic rate of passage is roughly 5-10 times real time, but this can be paused (while still allowing orders/planning) or set to pass fast or very fast. This can be combined with the option to run-until a specific time.

And how do you get a feeling of immersion, if there are only mapsymbols you can look at ?

At this level of command you would base most decisions from analysis of maps, verbal and written reports of contact and strength, with relatively little direct observation of the contested area by the command staff. This is imperfectly, but adequately portrayed by the map, the brief messages, unit reports, and by audio cues.

Just curious - I'm looking a long time already at this series. But these questions (and also the price a bit) hold me back.

THX !

Koen

If you enjoy running SB from the map, then this is probably a very good title to consider. If it is a game that you can take to, and I acknowledge it may not appeal to all, then the price is no more than fair for what is perhaps the best simulation for a home PC of the command problem available today.

FWIW, like SB Pro, COTA has also been adopted by the Australian DLO as a training tool.

[Koen]

THX for your feedback !

A last one:

This is imperfectly, but adequately portrayed by the map, the brief messages, unit reports, and by audio cues.

-> Are those messages etc ... enough diversified & varying or maybe too repetitive ?

K

[GH_Lieste]

They are brief and informational, offering status updates for movement completion, units failing to complete their movements, or consolidating on their objective areas. The arrival of reinforcements, or air support strikes. Units breaking under pressure, being destroyed or surrendering, supply columns arriving or suffering casualties. The destruction of enemy units by fire or surrender. Completion or loss of victory locations, destruction of crossing points or tunnels etc.

Many of these come around with some regularity, especially the supply deliveries. The messages can be filtered by three groups though - routine, important and critical messages can be hidden, but I tend not to hide them unless a lot is happening - I can filter them by their colour as they are delivered (green/amber/red) so I can assume successful delivery of supplies is happening if there are relatively few amber messages and lots of green.

Even if the messages are suppressed they can be read from the messages log (available for traffic relating to a specific unit up or down the chain).

[Richie61]

Do any of you guys tried or played the Combat Mission - World War II - games?

Beyond Overlord

Barbarossa to Berlin - :bigsmile:

Afrika Korps - there is a ETO (European Theater) mod for this that replaces the "Beyond Overlord" game.:thelmut:

I never tried there "modern" time games.:redface:

[GH_Lieste]

Do any of you guys tried or played the Combat Mission - World War II - games?

Beyond Overlord

Barbarossa to Berlin - :bigsmile:

Afrika Korps - there is a ETO (European Theater) mod for this that replaces the "Beyond Overlord" game.:thelmut:

I never tried there "modern" time games.:redface:

Yes, I had CMBB, and CMAK. I found the AI shockingly bad, especially with it's pointless tank-rushes through a single ambush. The 1 minute turns soon got tiresome as well as I typically set my armour on 'hunt' with a long route and left them to it for most of the game. I also found the larger missions tedious to play.

At that time I still preferred the game play and feel from CC2 (Market Garden), where there were relatively few armoured units for most of the game, and a heavy emphasis on CQB with light infantry. There was also a reasonable campaign which linked each of the smaller battles and showed their significance to the overall progress.

Later CC series games seemed to lose a certain 'something' along the way, and CC3 in particular usually degenerated into a tank-fest, and one which the player needn't feel too concerned about losing... I think I played several German campaigns where I didn't lose a single battle, even at the beginning when PzII/PzIII are facing off against T34 and KV1.

[Kingtiger]

I played CMBB and CMAK, and now I have CMSF:Marines and waiting for the brit forces module.. CMSF is totally kickass of fun

its what keeping me playing now when SB just wont work for me.

/KT

[GH_Lieste]

Dragging this back from obscurity:

There is a new Game Concepts video released - and the software is very near completion now from what Arjuna has said recently... but I'm not holding my breath just yet

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2461154&mpage=1&key=

Some bits of the video narration grated a little - possibly a UK/Aus thing, but overall I think it captures the basics of running these titles... The devil is in the details though, and there is much that can be analysed and used to your advantage/his discomfort if you have that sort of mind

I'm looking forward to this one still...