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Default Behavior in Buildings not working properly in Network Session as CLIENT [FIXED]


Gibsonm
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From yesterday's TGIF:

 

1. What I tasked them to do:

 

a. Defend, with a SE orientation:

 

SS_14_57_29.thumb.jpg.6ce1147e00ad026301a64e58f5dbc03d.jpg

 

b. Stay out of the building (since I knew the widows faced the "wrong" way, North):

 

SS_14_57_43.thumb.jpg.15f1edf287890d480562615ea80710c9.jpg

 

2. No the AI knows better and decides to do this:

 

SS_14_58_01.thumb.jpg.59bf03d30ade5a12b1610a60da7cd8d4.jpg

 

Namely:

 

a. Occupy the building.

 

b. Face North where they can see nothing.

 

And for icing on the cake, whilst I was trying to sort this out, their accompanying Bradley was destroyed because I wasn't "in" it stopping its AI from doing something dumb. :(

 

Are we getting to the stage where we need one player per vehicle / infantry team just to continually override the AI because it thinks it knows better? 😱

 

I can provide the AAR if it helps.

 

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I suppose you had standard behhaviors set for buildings and battle position tactics. So if the chosen tactic suggested to go into a nearby building, that's what they'll do. Suppose you set a "Guard" tactic behavior to stay outside of a building, then as long as you put the infantry on "Guard" they shouldn't enter.

Of course, then you need to memorize with which tactic they will go inside and with which they don't. But it should be controllable. If it isn't, it's a bug.

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5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I suppose you had standard behhaviors set for buildings and battle position tactics. So if the chosen tactic suggested to go into a nearby building, that's what they'll do. Suppose you set a "Guard" tactic behavior to stay outside of a building, then as long as you put the infantry on "Guard" they shouldn't enter.

Of course, then you need to memorize with which tactic they will go inside and with which they don't. But it should be controllable. If it isn't, it's a bug.

 

Pretty sure the second screenshot shows that I specifically told them to stay "outside" when given a Defend tactic, which they were given.

 

Or have I misinterpreted the interface?

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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There was a fix made to MG teams where, in 4.265 they would not enter a building if they had LOS to the enemy, and would instead lay on the ground immediately where they were once they saw the enemy and this was very aggravating. It could be that this fix messed up the DBIB setting for MG teams -- but guess what, in 4.265 they did something else on their own (laid on the ground and froze, even if they were in the middle of the street). It could be now that we made MG teams take cover regardless of the DBIB setting.  We will investigate. 

 

This is the nature of bug fixing, but in the mean time you should be able to use the Stay tactic to force a unit to stay outside, and this does not require a human in every single infantry team (using Stay is how things were done before the DBIB setting existed).

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13 minutes ago, Volcano said:

This is the nature of bug fixing, but in the mean time you should be able to use the Stay tactic to force a unit to stay outside, and this does not require a human in every single infantry team (using Stay is how things were done before the DBIB setting existed).

 

But then the issue is that "stay" is just like the command to a dog. They certainly remain do static, but that's it.

 

They wont fire, wont react to approaching enemy, wont displace from incoming indirect fire, etc. If anything I would have thought giving a bunch of units stay commands to ensure they occupy where you told them to go, would generate more hand holding, since they will just sit there.

 

I understand its a very complex model and changing one thing will have a range of flow on effects, not all forecast. Just thought it worth reporting one of the new behaviours (either a known flow on effect, or an unexpected on), esp as I explicitly set the behaviour to not enter the building but they did so anyway.

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Incorrect, Stay just means that they will stay in the spot that you place them in. They still fire at the enemy, and will also rotate the face and engage known enemy.  The only real difference is that with vehicles Stay means they won't avoid artillery fire, but this doesn't apply to infantry because they take cover and lay down during artillery barrages (they don't try to run away from it - that would get them killed).

 

So essentially, Stay doesn't do much difference in this case other than tell them to stay put and not get up and run for the nearest building or woods, but it does mean that you have to get them in a good position to actually stay in. 

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The description of the tactics has always been almost exclusively from the perspective of vehicles. The truth is, that infantry differ in behavior slightly -- they have to, because they have different characteristics.

 

Example: vehicles are allowed to avoid artillery on most tactics, but infantry will go prone and stay still during artillery because they wouldn't be able to get away from the artillery fast enough, and because going prone, taking cover and "taking it" would be safer than running away.

 

But before the push is to update the manual with all the infantry specific differences -- this is what the SBwiki would be for (the "living manual" for these types of things) as there would probably need to be a separate manual for infantry (probably not, but there would need to be some infantry specific sections, and maybe the manual will evolve that way in the future as infantry further evolve).

 

(The "Infantry Units" page is an attempt to put infantry specific differences there, but it certainly could use further development.)

https://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Infantry_Units

 

Infantry are allowed flexibility to turn and orient towards spotted enemy, mainly because not doing so would be killing each other, or laying there like brain dead zombies while shot in the back.

 

So yes, there are some differences and the manual is mostly vehicle specific, but all the difference with infantry should be logical.

 

But all I am trying to do is help you manage the infantry - in case here is a bug here, I mean. Before the DBIB settings were added (not too long ago, actually) the infantry were managed with Stay/Guard, to prevent from entering buildings. As mentioned, the main draw back from Stay is that you have scope out the spot first hand to make sure they are in a good place, before telling them to stay, but that is about it, and you only have to do it once. 

 

Either way, if there is a bug here then it *should* only affect the MG teams. If it doesn't then it means something was always wrong with the host/client relationship between the DBIB settings (always a bit of a gray area).  But we will look into it. In the mean time, Stay is the best thing to use with infantry when you want them to stay out of buildings, and not run for the nearest forest tile - otherwise if that doesn't matter to someone then Defend, Hold are all fine to use.

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Took a look at this and was unable to replicate the issue except for if the infantry are already in the building before the default behavior is changed. If this is repeatable in some other set of circumstances could you provide a test mission? That might be helpful in seeing what's going on.

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Just to confirm.

 

These options need to be be set at the start of the mission, in the planning phase, and then apply through out.

 

Once the mission is underway, you can't tailor it on a case by case basis, so unit X is told to "stay outside" with a Defend tactic, and subsequently unit Y can be told to fill a building from the top on a Defend tactic?

 

I've been setting them at the start and then not changing them but I just want to make sure.

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Good question, we will try various things this week and see if we can come back with an accurate description of how it works (as in, when do the settings take effect (ie. can you change them during the Execution Phase), and does the Host override the Client (I don't think so, but I want to know this part myself as well - its a gray area)).

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23 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

These options need to be be set at the start of the mission, in the planning phase, and then apply through out.

 

Once the mission is underway, you can't tailor it on a case by case basis, so unit X is told to "stay outside" with a Defend tactic, and subsequently unit Y can be told to fill a building from the top on a Defend tactic?

 

It is possible to make changes to those settings during execution phase, but they would take effect not immediately, but once units wold embark new route or arrive to new BP.  Also those 'Default behavior in buildings' settings  cannot be applied selectively to individual units; they are  global for all units owned by session participant (in offline session- party).

 

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4 hours ago, Jartsev said:

It is possible to make changes to those settings during execution phase, but they would take effect not immediately, but once units wold embark new route or arrive to new BP.  Also those 'Default behavior in buildings' settings  cannot be applied selectively to individual units; they are  global for all units owned by session participant (in offline session- party).

 

 

I'm afraid I don't understand that as it seems contradictory.

 

If I understand the first part I can select unit A and give if a behaviour (say "stay outside") then plot a new route and a new BP. Then I can select unit B and choose a different behaviour (say "occupy ground floor") and give it a new route and a new BP.

 

Then your second sentence says they "cannot be applied selectively to individual units; they are global for all units owned by session participant".

 

Or are you saying if I choose "stay outside" every unit I give a new route and BP will do that, until I choose something else?

 

Which is correct?

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1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Or are you saying if I choose "stay outside" every unit I give a new route and BP will do that, until I choose something else?

Exactly. As I wrote above-  settings in  'Default behavior in buildings' and 'Default route waypoint tactics' menus are global and during network session  are applied to each and every unit  owned by client. You cannot define them separately for each of your units.

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8 hours ago, Jartsev said:

Exactly. As I wrote above-  settings in  'Default behavior in buildings' and 'Default route waypoint tactics' menus are global and during network session  are applied to each and every unit  owned by client. You cannot define them separately for each of your units.

 

Well I'm still confused.

 

How can they be global and apply during a network session, If I can change them as I click on subsequent units?

 

9 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

Or are you saying if I choose "stay outside" every unit I give a new route and BP will do that, until I choose something else?

 

My interpretation / what I was trying to say in the quote above was:

 

Choose unit A - apply behavior X. In the same session select unit B and apply behavior Y.

 

To me saying I can do that but also saying they are:

 

8 hours ago, Jartsev said:

global and during network session  are applied to each and every unit  owned by client. You cannot define them separately for each of your units.

 

are mutually exclusive?

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At any given time the settings are global to the units owned by the player. But you can still change the settings, so you get different behaviors at different times.

 

Irrespective of the minutiae of this particular issue, this discussion is, to me, an indicator that we have reached about the upper limit of infantry user interface complexity. Either there must be ways to visualize better in which "behavior mode" a unit is, or the AI must be improved to be more adaptable to individual situations - but that at the expense of user control ... or the tactical scale must be reduced.

 

The desire to have a higher level of detail to control infantry is a profound design challenge. I'm not sure if everyone who demands more details is aware of such implications.

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OK, well, everyone is so eager to help that it might just be confusing the situation but that's what happens when there is a complex issue being discussed. I mean you can't really say "infantry have a mind of their own" and then expect this to be a single comment issue, right?

 

That said, we did some extensive testing of this feature and here is what we found:

 

1. There does seem to be a bug here, which doesn't seem to be anything new at least (upon investigation) but rather it was something that didn't quite always work right.  As I suspected in my previous post, there is an issue between the HOST / CLIENT with the Default Behavior in Buildings (DBIB) selection in network sessions. The issue is that for the HOST (and also in Offline Sessions) the DBIB works as expected, it applies to all their owned units. However for a CLIENT in a Network Session the DBIB setting only applies to the owned unit that the CLIENT is currently occupying, and not to the units the CLIENT owns which they are not occupying. This is likely what you saw in the Network Session this past Friday.  This has been reproduced and we will look into it - it just shows how complicated things are in the network environment.

 

2. In the mean time, as I also mentioned - in Network Session as CLIENT I recommend using STAY when you really want your infantry units to stay outside. I admit, I have been playing SB so long that this is what I *always use* because this is what I am used to, and this is how it worked before the DBIB feature was added. The only draw back with using STAY is that you have to check to see if they can see from their location, and if not, then you will have to move them until you get them where you want them. Besides that, everything should be fine (they will shoot at the enemy, and face the enemy, etc). 

 

3. The other info about DBIB settings are correct : 

a. When changing the DBIB setting in mid Execution Phase, then you will have to give them a new tactic for it to take effect, because the tactic has to be refreshed/replaced. This is just how computers work - not a bug.

b. The other statement about it being a global setting, was just to say that it applies (or in the case of the bug above, should apply) to all the owned infantry units. So, all the owned infantry with Defend and "Stay outside" will (should) stay outside.  This was just a clarification on how it works, I don't think it was meant to cause confusion or to suggest that anyone was doing anything wrong.

 

---------------------------------

 

So, here is what we have:

 

#1 is a bug in Network Session. We are looking into it - so this is the good news. 

#2 is what you can do right now to avoid the issue, and this prevents you from "having a user in every infantry team" as the first post complained.

#3 are just clarifications with how DBIB feature works, you may ignore this.

 

(We will update here when the bug has been addressed.)

 

 

 

 

 

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  • Volcano changed the title to Default Behavior in Buildings not working properly in Network Session as CLIENT
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Yes, that is correct - use Stay in mean time, but with careful placement and then eventually (hopefully in the near term) it will get fixed.

 

It seems that the DBIB feature never worked right in Network Sessions, and we are looking into that (the fix might be extensive because the DBIB feature is quite complicated, but we are trying to keep it focused on this specific issue at least but its unknown when exactly it will be fixed).

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  • Volcano changed the title to Default Behavior in Buildings not working properly in Network Session as CLIENT [FIXED]
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Should be fixed in the next major upgrade.

 

So basically, the fix was extensive and... "risky" and so it won't appear in a patch, but instead it will have to wait for the next big upgrade because of so many dependency type changes. Until now and the next upgrade (including in any 4.2 patches that might occur between now and then) please continue to use STAY tactic when you want your infantry to remain outside of a building in Network Sessions as CLIENT.

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