War in Ukraine (split from Video Thread)

[Jartsev]

We all see and understand what is going on in Ukraine now. But there are forum rules regarding political debates, and as a moderator I'm asking you to refrain from posting content  leading to such debates.

[daskal]

15 hours ago, Jartsev said:

We all see and understand what is going on in Ukraine now. But there are forum rules regarding political debates, and as a moderator I'm asking you to refrain from posting content  leading to such debates.

So videos from the conlict showing armor are not allowed here?

[12Alfa]

4 hours ago, daskal said:

So videos from the conlict showing armor are not allowed here?

The only way around this..........................Honk Honk.

[Ssnake]

22 hours ago, daskal said:

So videos from the conlict showing armor are not allowed here?

They will be tolerated as long as they are reporting, but not opinionating. Which, in the age of information warfare we're in, is difficult enough and there will be arguments about whether a video falls into one category or the other (e.g. "Russian Peace Keepers ambushed by Ukrainian Nazi Battalion" vs. "Ukrainian patriots valiantly defend against Russian aggressors" as two potential headlines for exactly the same event).

The question then is, which narrative is tolerated, because arguably the first example pushes Russian propaganda ... so should we tolerate only the other?

The separation of the two in a highly emotional context with a potentially very rapid flow of new messages is not only difficult to decide. There's also the very real danger that our ability to moderate is being overwhelmed. So we tend to take a restrictive approach.

Twitter style flame wars are best left to Twitter, is my opinion.

[stormrider_sp]

Propaganda is part of warfare. What side are we on? The best way to help Putin is to restrict political debate because there are no lies that can win against the truth.

 

It's very clear that the regular russians are very restricted in terms of media exposure, they're are limited to what Putins media broadcast. Here is free turf, if they want to come and discuss politics here or anywhere without the censorship hammer, it's a chance for us to open their eyes.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by stormrider_sp

[Apocalypse 31]

That lasted exactly one post...

[Ssnake]

3 hours ago, stormrider_sp said:

Propaganda is part of warfare. What side are we on?

Yeah, well, if someone wants to read other opinions, there's plenty of web sites to choose from (Tanknet, maybe, if we exclude the madness of second-by-second updates terrorizing smartphone users with several active Twitter feeds, Facebook user group subscriptions, and a more or less large group of acquaintances on various instant messengers).

If you believe that you can "open the eyes" of someone who has largely chosen to read Russian sources so far by posting "the truth" here against the deluge of messages from his social web of connections you haven't understood how modern information warfare works.

For Russians with trust in their own media and their own social web (and why would they listen to it if they were not trusting it) -- while they might not support the war itself, the majority of Russians nevertheless believe that the escalation is largely the fault of Ukraine and NATO. Obviously "we" don't believe that, and I'm not suggesting that "the truth is somewhere in the middle".

 

I'm just saying, if you opinionate here you attract others with a different opinion, and if in doubt they can mobilize their friends or an actual troll farm, and as a result we'd simply have to shut down the whole forum to the detriment of everybody else.

Before that happens, the moderator staff here will intervene by locking threads, and this is why.

[Abraxas]

I understand the intention of this forum, but hasn't it lost its innocence long ago?

Videos of the wars in Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan are shown. Were there trolls?

So why not from the current war in the Ukraine?

I see "fear of trolls" as fear of taking appropriate countermeasures, e.g. blocking users.

So more courage!

[mpow66m]

I mean what is the ground zero forum for?Most on this forum are adults,this forum doesnt really attract choldren.Most here are former or current Servicemen.

Edited February 27, 2022 by mpow66m

[Ssnake]

I'm not going to measure courage from behind keyboards. It's not about whether we dare to speak out against the Russian president, or to signal our virtue by expressing our desire that the Ukraininan people live in freedom from oppression, and peace. That the "no politics" rule is a somewhat fuzzy boundary is undisputed. What appears neutral to one viewer supports the evil narrative to another.

Like I wrote, we will tolerate videos with a high report-to-opinion noise ratio, although it also has to be said that currently the internet is also flooded with footage that is years old and definitively not showing what's happening, as a part of the professional information warfare effort. SteelBeasts.com cannot be some military intelligence center that tracks the campaign in real time, we simply don't have the capacity to moderate such flow. Therefore expect that threads will be locked if moderators get the impression that a thread has become political.

 

We have set up rules for this forum which also apply to Ground Zero. Follow these rules and we'll get along just fine. Explore the far edges of those rules at your own peril, and don't cry Foul if you discover that a very similar post minutes ago wasn't punished while yours just was. This is a moderated forum, and we will moderate to the best of our ability. But a hands-off approach on our part requires responsible posting from the users.

[Lt DeFault]

15 hours ago, Ssnake said:

reporting, but not opinionating

 

^This.

 

Apparently 'reporting' is dead. I find myself reading multiple articles by as many varied sources as I can find just to try and sift out what is fact vs. the authors' opinions. It seems that everyone has an agenda these days. Or, we always have but we've stopped caring enough to hide it ... I suppose.

[mpow66m]

I mean for petes sake Spanish TV has been playing a video of a CIWS fring on a MiG.......It was really a Arma 3 doctored video.There is so much BS been spit out.Lol

[Trackpin]

Not too off topic, but I hope acceptable. 

Based on what is being show by MSN, what new/updated platforms would users like to see in SB Pro?

For example there seems to be quite a few newer MT-LB variants used by both sides.

Perhaps the Gucci gear is being kept back for the second phase, or perhaps it does not exist.

Given the huge size of Ukraine, 1200km East/West and 600km North/South, the vulnerability of MSR's and logistical challenges are already evident, and informative.

At the moment the tempo of airstrikes/CAS seems low, or just not being reported. That does at least feel like a SB scenario.

[Red2112]

Airspace has been closed for the most part of EU.

[mpow66m]

This is one of the best explanations Ive seen about whats going on with the RU Army.Nothing fancy Its humorous at times and in depth on RU Mil.Doctrine.I havent seen any of the Generals on TV going into this.This was put together by an grunt,combat vet who doesnt have all these fancy tiles before or after his name.

https://youtu.be/K5BAZ2bBUzM

 

[Captain_Colossus]

ukraine to receive leopard I tanks (possibly- i am not sure where in these articles it is affirmed that german government is facilitating or authorizing any transfer, only that rheinmetall is ready to do it)

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/rheinmetall-ready-to-supply-up-to-50-tanks-to-ukraine-newspaper/ar-AAW5OHf

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/rheinmetall-ready-supply-up-50-tanks-ukraine-newspaper-2022-04-11/

 

https://uawire.org/german-company-rheinmetall-says-it-is-ready-to-supply-tanks-to-ukraine

[P Lakowski]

42 minutes ago, Captain_Colossus said:

ukraine to receive leopard I tanks (possibly- i am not sure where in these articles it is affirmed that german government is facilitating or authorizing any transfer, only that rheinmetall is ready to do it)

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/rheinmetall-ready-to-supply-up-to-50-tanks-to-ukraine-newspaper/ar-AAW5OHf

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/rheinmetall-ready-supply-up-50-tanks-ukraine-newspaper-2022-04-11/

 

https://uawire.org/german-company-rheinmetall-says-it-is-ready-to-supply-tanks-to-ukraine

I HAD NO IDEA THERE WERE ANY LEO-1 AROUND?

[12Alfa]

Would they have the same effect as those S-300 from Slovakia, that were turned into scrap by Caliber strike last night?

 

Update: Last sys destroyed, not current one..

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by 12Alfa

[Captain_Colossus]

i agree, i wouldn't make any predictions, but i wonder if they would have limited effect, that is, if ukraine goes on the offense with larger but outdated weapons, they are actually playing to russia's strength in direct confrontation. what has worked for ukraine picking off convoys with drones and man portable anti-tank weapons would transition to easier to identify and locate movements without control of the airspace for protection.

[Gibsonm]

52 minutes ago, Captain_Colossus said:

i agree, i wouldn't make any predictions, but i wonder if they would have limited effect, that is, if ukraine goes on the offense with larger but outdated weapons, they are actually playing to russia's strength in direct confrontation. what has worked for ukraine picking off convoys with drones and man portable anti-tank weapons would transition to easier to identify and locate movements without control of the airspace for protection.

 

Without training, ammunition (doubt Ukraine has large stocks of 105mm rounds) and spares, they'll be just targets.

[Ssnake]

If the current war shows anything, then it's that outdated tanks aren't worth much. My conclusion is, active protection systems are a must (but it'll take a while to equip the fleets with them), ERA alone is not sufficient.

 

Ukraine would probably benefit much more if damaged tanks could be repaired large scale in tank workshops outside of the country, e.g. Czechia, Poland (you'd still have to put them on rail cars, which are, in principle, vulnerable ... and then there's the issue of broad gauge vs. European standard gauge). That's the only option where you don't have to reinvent training and a whole logistical supply system.

Mr. Papperger may be very enthusiastic about selling his stock of old tanks, but like so many ideas floating around these days they do not appear to be extremely practical.

 

The real issue, at the end of the day, is that Ukraine would have to go on the offense eventually, under a hostile sky that is dominated by the Russian airforce. That is a very tall order. Anti-tank missiles and drones are fine for delaying action and defense, but they cannot substitute for the big problem that the Ukrainian army cannot move larger formations without the very serious danger of seeing them all go up in flames before they even reach a front line. At the very least Ukrainian air defense would need to be strengthed by theater-level air defense, and so far nobody has presented a convincing idea how that could be done (short of a single S-300 battalion, which may or may not have gone up in flames right after delivery -  when will people learn that loose lips... oh, well).

 

I don't see how Russia can win this war politically. But militarily, they still can operate more or less at will, especially if they manage to rectify the problems coming from the grotesquely inadequate assessment of the war's fundamental political conditions. The question for Ukraine is, how long are they willing to endure losses and hardship when there is no realistic prospect of drawing NATO/the US into the conflict any deeper than material and financial support (and it's neither in NATO's nor the US's national interest to get drawn into this, let's be realistic here).

[Koen]

Europe’s roads and railways aren’t fit for a fight with Russia

EU struggles to reverse years of neglect on spending to improve road and rail to shift troops and tanks.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-military-mobility-budget-slammed-as-almost-nothing-to-tackle-russia-challenge/

Edited April 12, 2022 by Koen