T72

[Ssnake]

Yes!

[will14]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:07 AM, mpow66m said:

I agree theres no way Putin or his Generals could have thought they could conquer Ukrainia in 2-3 days.They ll surround their Objs and shell them into oblivion to get them to surrender,but that ll never work.The RU have lost 11 high level Officers on the front lines where they should never be.....you can only come to one conclusion from that...they are going up there to get get troops motivated and fix the massive mess both logistical and strategical.I just watched a video of an RU Officer talking with another about shooting soldiers who did not want to fight.Id say it was legit based on the emotion behind it,the sounded depressed, beaten and exhausted.I think what we are seeing now is the death throes of the USSR and its remains.

i missed were russia said they would win in 3 days...

[12Alfa]

1 hour ago, will14 said:

i missed were russia said they would win in 3 days...

I may have missed that quote, can you send a link?

[12Alfa]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:07 AM, mpow66m said:

I agree theres no way Putin or his Generals could have thought they could conquer Ukrainia in 2-3 days.They ll surround their Objs and shell them into oblivion to get them to surrender,but that ll never work.The RU have lost 11 high level Officers on the front lines where they should never be.....you can only come to one conclusion from that...they are going up there to get get troops motivated and fix the massive mess both logistical and strategical.I just watched a video of an RU Officer talking with another about shooting soldiers who did not want to fight.Id say it was legit based on the emotion behind it,the sounded depressed, beaten and exhausted.I think what we are seeing now is the death throes of the USSR and its remains.

 

This would be my: only come to one conclusion may be-

 

There are papers, past conflicts, ect, to suggest they are commanding their B T G, which are led by "high level Officers",

 

may be the cause, where we in the west have kept our officers where? Sqn CO, Inf CO? Recce Sqn CO?

 

Thinking they are maneuvering like the1970-2000's would be incorrect, consider what happened a few short years ago in Syria.

Many will be surprised on this outcome, some...not so much.

Actions not words, led to knowledge

[Captain_Colossus]

nato and in particular the united states are providing key support- and more than just the weapons, are providing targeting information to ukraine, making up the difference in the relative strengths between russia and ukraine. without intervention like that, ukraine certainly has bigger problems to solve (there is no evidence that they were this effective fighting separatists in the years prior). it is basically now known that they have been able to hit russian naval targets and pick off individual russian flag officers with united states intelligence- and it is basically inferred more is going on, that is, identifying russian flight plans and positions of russian BTGs. now to what extent is the fighting done by ukraine but the strategy coming from washington

 

basically take the argument 'the tank is dead' and now flip it the other way and make ukraine to be a superpower which in either case makes this kind of statement without more context- this isn't to say that there aren't some standout examples of ukrainian battles and individual sacrifices,  there most certainly are ( look at the fanatical defenses of mariupol), but it in itself it isn't as effective of course without outside assistance. there are few articles out there of american or canadian volunteers who describe their individual experiences in ukranian units as much more difficult and hellish than what is being described in the media, where they play up russian losses and virtually overlook all ukranian casualties except in examples to highlight a particular battle for good press. anything you see comes with obvious filters because it is so one sided

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Captain_Colossus

[mpow66m]

5 hours ago, will14 said:

i missed were russia said they would win in 3 days...

That BS was going around in the beginning of the War. 

[mpow66m]

Russias biggest problems are...

1-the command structure of their Mil.Polar opposite of the west,no NCO corp with authority

2 Conscripts who are poorly trained and treated like garbage

3 Armour is outdated

[12Alfa]

1 hour ago, mpow66m said:

Russias biggest problems are...

1-the command structure of their Mil.Polar opposite of the west,no NCO corp with authority

2 Conscripts who are poorly trained and treated like garbage

3 Armour is outdated

 Well.

1. Sn NCO do have authority. This was a priory of Mr. P when he first became prime minister, then later as president. There are many papers, books etc, on what happened to Russian forces on this last 2 decades. To the changes, some good, some not. NCO are not a issue. 

 

2. Maybe in the early years, not trained to western standards to be sure, although I haven't seen any data on large issues in their training schools as of late. There are a number of western armies that are not 100%. The forces have a bad rep there, not well paid, but a huge pool to draw from.

 

3. ISSIS, doesn't thinks so, and I think in a conflict where both sides have the same it is not a issue, crew performance is the deciding factor given all things equal.

 

My view on this is the west (NATO) has not fought a equal, they are now witnessing it in real time. The west has misunderstood the Z force, and are behind in certain fields (Hypersonic wpns), EW, Drone warfare.

 

This is not the Z force of the Warsaw Pack, this has changed for some time, refined in Syria.

 

The west has drawn down after the fall of the wall, reduced def budgets, men, equipment, and last more importantly the will to know, then fight the real enemy.

 

Where does the EU get their energy?

Who just shut down a pipeline to the EU?

Will it get cold this coming winter in the EU?

 

See where this is going?

 

The west will sign a peace deal, abet higher prices, it will take decades to recover from this.

 

How is the Ruble doing?

 

Follow the $$$$

 

 

Time will tell, Enjoy the show.

[Ssnake]

5 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

My view on this is the west (NATO) has not fought a equal, they are now witnessing it in real time. The west has misunderstood the Z force, and are behind in certain fields (Hypersonic wpns), EW, Drone warfare.

That's hard to dispute.

 

5 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

The west has ..., reduced ... more importantly the will to know, then fight the real enemy.

Whoever that "real enemy" is. Not sure if I want to know your answer TBH, but it sounds so nebulous to me that it reminds me of certain conspiracy theorists.

 

5 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

Where does the EU get their energy?

Who just shut down a pipeline to the EU?

Will it get cold this coming winter in the EU?

a. Russia, at a reduced and further receding amount

b. Russia, as was to be expected

c. Most probably not

An economic recession is possible, but there's no sign that heating for the population is endangered.

 

Furthermore, the decision to rid Europe of energy dependency from Russia seems to have been made across all of Europe, and as far as I can see it's not going to change even if Russia decided today to pull back its forces, annul the annexation if Crimea and Donbass, and pay reparations.

 

5 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

The west will sign a peace deal, abet higher prices, it will take decades to recover from this.

"The West" won't strike a peace deal in the strict sense because officially it's not at war with Russia. Heck, even Russia by all official accounts is not at war with anyone. The theory that mutual dependency assures peaceful relations has been thoroughly debunked. As long as Russia maintains a policy of hostility towards the EU and NATO, I just don't see how there could be a return to relaxed relations. I see no reason for "the West" to change its attitude which is fundamentally non-aggressive towards Russia. It is Russia that defines the nature of its foreign relations, at the moment.

What's more, the conduct of Russian troops in Ukraine makes it hard to imagine that on an emotional level its neighbors are going to restore relations to at least where it was before Feb 24.

In short, I fundamentally disagree not with the quoted part of your analysis, but with your conclusions. I don't think you're following the current political and strategic debate within the European Union (and, you being a Canadian, that's somewhat excusable; hard enough to keep track of it while living here).

[Jartsev]

Sadly, but this thread is also going very wrong direction. Please stop debates on subject of politics, and don't make me to lock it or to apply posting restrictions individually.

[Captain_Colossus]

there is something missing from the steel beasts t-72 and the t-series tank models: the detachable fuel drums. if included in steel beasts as a detachable option in the mission editor if users don't like it, or it is not applicable to the scenario, then it is win-win.

 

pros: authentic. detachable. excellent.

cons: so authentic, detachable, excellent, players not ready for the experience

 

 

[12Alfa]

As I understand their use, long road marches, and the fact that most if not all SB missions can operate on a full tank its a feature purely for visuals.

 

That being said , I'm ready for the experience

 

Just more places that will result in fireball, and who doesn't not enjoy fireballs ?

 

[Captain_Colossus]

visual yes. but also: optional. authentic, detachable. excellent.

 

(in reality there are real world examples where they were attached and fought- and destroyed).

 

visually it rounds it out a way i just cannot explain except in some way it looks better. it's like going to barbecue where they serve no meat, because you don't win friends with salad

 

 

[Ssnake]

We wanted to dispel the impression that T-xx tanks could be reliably identified by those fuel drums. I guess, mission accomplished. Insofar there's no reason why we couldn't at least make those drums optional (though not for the 4.3 release, not enough time left).

[Captain_Colossus]

👍 certainly would beautify things if and when it can be done

[Iarmor]

Not just for visuals. A tank carrying fuel drums might catch fire easily, even from artillery or small arms fire. During the 1967 war, gasoline drums carried on Jordanian M48s were used as aiming points for Israeli M50 Shermans and AML-90s, after they failed to penetrate the M48's armor. Diesel fuel is less flammable than gasoline, but still it's better for the T-xx to remove the fuel drums before going into battle.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Iarmor

[Captain_Colossus]

3 hours ago, Iarmor said:

Not just for visuals. A tank carrying fuel drums might catch fire easily, even from artillery or small arms fire. During the 1967 war, gasoline drums carried on Jordanian M48s were used as aiming points for Israeli M50 Shermans and AML-90s, after they failed to penetrate the M48's armor. Diesel is less flammable than gasoline, but still it's better for the T-xx to remove the fuel drums before going into battle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

you  just made my case- yes, it is safer to remove those before a battle- but you can see in your photos that wasn't done in those cases. for whatever reason, perhaps contact was not expected or whatever so that they were caught unprepared- there are real world examples of them attached- and destroyed with the vehicle. so, they could be included as an option

[Iarmor]

Another example, an Egyptian T-62 destroyed while carrying Diesel fuel drums

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Iarmor

[Ssnake]

Conceivably, killed by air strike when it didn't expect imminent ground contact. Like I wrote, I'm not disputing that it happened historically. It's just that doctrinally the barrels are to be removed when preparing for combat, so that's why we decided years ago to show our tanks without these fuel drums. Won't stay like this forever, but short term we can't change it either.

[Hedgehog]

Didn't they have a quick release toggle the driver/commnader could pull that would dump the drums?

[Iarmor]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Conceivably, killed by air strike when it didn't expect imminent ground contact.

 

Note the penetration hole on the gun mantlet

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GPxgMYMVgnY/Utcd70-IOsI/AAAAAAAABMo/WsrTbdrR7xk/s1600/t_62.jpg

[12Alfa]

Modem day events employ such barrels mounted.

https://rumble.com/v14qgzx-russian-forces-destroying-the-base-of-azovs.html?mref=6zof&mrefc=18

[Iarmor]

22 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

Didn't they have a quick release toggle the driver/commnader could pull that would dump the drums?

 

Yes for the T-72, but no for the T-54/55/62. Not sure about the M48. 

 

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/01/t-54.html

 

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2017/12/t-72-part-2.html#fuel_tanks

[Captain_Colossus]

 

[Ssnake]

"The threat in this case was RPG 7" - yeah, duh, because cage armor is defeating only RPG-7 (which is not so bad as it may sound, being the most widely proliferated RPG in the world) ... where the deformation of the copper liner is at best a secondary function in performance reduction, but not outright defeat. RPG-7 is unique in that the electric circuit connecting the piezoelectric nose fuze with the HEAT charge's base detonator is formed by a wire and the aerodynamic aluminum casing of the round. As it wedges itself between two metal bars, the casing is crushed inwards and shortens the fuze wire before it can trigger the base detonator.

The rest of the video is fine (although I do think that the cages were intended as a countermeasure against RPG top attacks in low intensity urban combat.

The war turned out to be entirely different than anticipated, so the cages were removed, and here we are. That's at least what I'm seeing, YMMV.)