Damage assessment

[BlackDeath]

Hi,

 

I'm being curious about damages : how are they modelled in Steel Beasts ?

For exemple, if I have a "gunner" damage on my tank, does that mean the gunner is incapacitated or the whole gunner controls are destroyed (or both)? 

Same for the driver, if I have a "driver" damage, would that mean an incapacitated driver or damage to the steering wheel/levers/whatever other controls/transmission (or both)?

 

What about "Destroyed" (not when the turret goes airbone or the vehicle is burning obviously); does that mean the vehicle substained crippling damage and is just considered destroyed? Or is the whole crew "simply" incapacitated?

 

I am pretty sure I once had all crew incapacitated in one of my tank when hitting a tree (long time ago, V2.x); today I tried hitting stuff to incapacitate all crew, the vehicle is systematically destroyed.

 

Thanks!

[mpow66m]

Gunner KIA. If the gunner is KIA the vech can still shoot,either the TC or Loader can shoot.The TC from his workspace and the Loader from the gunners work space I believe.

 

Driver KIA. Whwn the Driver is KIA your not going anywhere w//o the help of a medic.Id like to know in real life who would take the drivers place and can you access the drivers workspace thru the turret?

 

Destroyed. Destroyed is destroyed,its scrap AFAIK

 

As for componet damage each damaged componet will be listed upper r hd corner.Gunner,TC, Loader,Driver are all personnel not equiptment damage.If the gunner is KIA that doesnt mean his workspace is destroyed.

Edited March 11, 2022 by mpow66m

[BlackDeath]

Did some tests on M1A2SEP & T55

 

If only gunner is dead, I guess some other crew take position.

If both gunner & TC are dead, no more shooting; neither loader nor driver take position of either.

If driver is dead, no more moving even with rest of crew OK.

If only loader is dead, no change, i guess TC reloads the gun.

If loader and TC are dead, gunner assumes loader position after firing. Can also go to TC station.

If loader and gunner are dead, TC assumes gunner & loader position.

 

If all dead, the vehicle is considered destroyed (means no more recovery from ambulance)

 

I suppose IRL all crews are trained on all stations ?

[Gibsonm]

3 hours ago, BlackDeath said:

I suppose IRL all crews are trained on all stations ?

 

Depends on the Army.

 

In some Conscript, short service ones, no.

 

In ours for example, yes.

[Ssnake]

Any crew damage means, the crew member is "incapacitated". Steel Beasts makes no statement whether that's killed or severely wounded or any other reason why that crew member can no longer perform its function. Given that a human player can hop into each of these positions after auch a damage happened and that combat vehicles in SB Pro stay in the fight, albeit at reduced capability, it can be inferred that the control elements are still functional (let's call it an unspoken assumption). Likewise, Steel Beasts assumes that other crew members can at least emergency-substitute an incapacitated crew member. Driving modern tanks is not much more difficult than a regular car, as far as the controls are concerned. Likewise, loading a gun isn't that difficult.

Of course, all this is an abstraction/simplification. You could always make the case that substituting a crew member in an emergency by another crew member that hasn't received the special training isn't quite so easy as Steel Beasts makes it look like, and you would be right. Nevertheless, "all models are wrong..." (and SB Pro is but a model of reality) "...but some models are useful."

[Lumituisku]

2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Any crew damage means, the crew member is "incapacitated". Steel Beasts makes no statement whether that's killed or severely wounded or any other reason why that crew member can no longer perform its function. Given that a human player can hop into each of these positions after auch a damage happened and that combat vehicles in SB Pro stay in the fight, albeit at reduced capability, it can be inferred that the control elements are still functional (let's call it an unspoken assumption). Likewise, Steel Beasts assumes that other crew members can at least emergency-substitute an incapacitated crew member. Driving modern tanks is not much more difficult than a regular car, as far as the controls are concerned. Likewise, loading a gun isn't that difficult.

 

Does this mean that players should be able to change position to drivers location from other positions if driver is incapacitated?  Or is Driver exeption in this?

[BlackDeath]

6 hours ago, Lumituisku said:

 

Does this mean that players should be able to change position to drivers location from other positions if driver is incapacitated?  Or is Driver exeption in this?

Same for gunner & TC, if both dead, neither the driver nor the loader will currently assume position.

And if only the loader remains, well the vehicle is as good as dead (except it can still report eny positions)

[Ssnake]

In older Steel Beasts versions we cheated, and the driver was always the last to die (actually, he couldn't "die" but perished whenever the vehicle was otherwise rated as "destroyed"). Now it's possible to have the driver incapacitated, in which case one crew member will assume the driver's role (as long as other crew members still exist), and if all crew members are dead the tank is now also rated as "destroyed". No, there is no appreciable delay between crew members switching roles. I agree that there should be one, possibly even a very significant one. I also agree that there should be more consequences. It's just not a top development priority at the moment (but not forgotten).

[Lumituisku]

4 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

In older Steel Beasts versions we cheated, and the driver was always the last to die (actually, he couldn't "die" but perished whenever the vehicle was otherwise rated as "destroyed"). Now it's possible to have the driver incapacitated, in which case one crew member will assume the driver's role (as long as other crew members still exist), and if all crew members are dead the tank is now also rated as "destroyed". No, there is no appreciable delay between crew members switching roles. I agree that there should be one, possibly even a very significant one. I also agree that there should be more consequences. It's just not a top development priority at the moment (but not forgotten).

 

Umm... Currently driver being incapacitated = vehicle is immobile. 

No crew will assume drivers position and player cannot either. 

[BlackDeath]

18 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

 

Umm... Currently driver being incapacitated = vehicle is immobile. 

No crew will assume drivers position and player cannot either. 

 

I confirm; here is a test scenario with all cases. (The same happens in game when a crew is lost)

Driver dead, vehicle is immobile forever; you cannot jump into driver position either

TC & Gunner dead, vehicle cannot shot anymore (including only AI vehicles)

Only loader left, well no more action left, no position available.

test8.sce

 

[Lumituisku]

I just tested.  This.  I shot driver from a leopard 2A4  and tried to access if from other positions via multible methods.

I tried multible methods from F6, F7 and F8 positions.  Including holding down the F9 to access drivers place  for over 2 minutes.  And wasn't able to.    I also tried to access drivers place from drop menu above.  No luck.  

[Lumituisku]

Also.. very long time ago  I think it was @dejawolf who replied to me about why I cannot access to incapacitated drivers place  something along the following lines. 

Quote

Unable to access drivers place, simulates destruction of control surfaces 

 

[mpow66m]

When the loader or gunner is Incapacitated there is a slight delay before you can fire the gun again im pretty sure. 

[Mirzayev]

There are four crew members on vehicles like the M1 platform, Leopard 2 platform, etc. 

 

Crewmembers can be incapacitated from damage, which includes things like ramming into a tree or boulder at top speed. 

 

If the vehicle with an incapacitated crew member is in range of a medical vehicle, they will be restored to normal operation in 15 minutes. 

 

Driver - if incapacitated, the vehicle is rendered immobile. 

 

Loader - if incapacitated, one of the surviving members in the turret (the TC by default, or the gunner if the TC is incapacitated) reloads between shots. If the gunner is the only one left, you will be unable to use any of the gunner's controls while putting the next round into the breach.

 

Gunner - if incapacitated, the TC can take over the position. Pretty sure this is done by default. 

 

TC - if incapacitated, you will not hear fire commands from the TC while playing as the loader, and none of the TC functions (slewing the turret when you can't identify, etc) will be executed. You are allowed to swap between the TC and the Gunner's stations. 

 

In practical terms: if you have only the TC, the gunner, or the loader incapacitated, you can fight the tank with a slight degradation in crew capability. You *should* seek a medic during a natural lull in the battle. 

 

If losing more than 1x crew member in the turret (or the driver at any point), you're tank is greatly degraded; you *need* to get it to a medic at the first opportunity. 

 

With that being said, just don't get hit. EZ. 🙃

Edited March 12, 2022 by Mirzayev

[BlackDeath]

36 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

The levels of misinformation in some parts of this thread is staggering. 
If the vehicle with an incapacitated crew member is in range of a medical vehicle, they will be restored to normal operation in 15 minutes. 

 

6 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Now it's possible to have the driver incapacitated, in which case one crew member will assume the driver's role (as long as other crew members still exist)

 

Misinformation? We pretty much all say the same thing, that is when driver gone, no more driving; which, according to Ssnake shouldn't be the case.

I didn't mention the medical vehicle but of course you can get your crew back with an ambulance (which is not the point of this thread).

 

 

 

 

[Mirzayev]

2 hours ago, BlackDeath said:

 

 

Misinformation? We pretty much all say the same thing, that is when driver gone, no more driving; which, according to Ssnake shouldn't be the case.

I didn't mention the medical vehicle but of course you can get your crew back with an ambulance (which is not the point of this thread).

 

 

 

 

Edited it cause I realized I was a bit too aggressive there. Did this before you posted the responding quote, BTW.

 

But please, stir the pot, fam.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Mirzayev

[Captain_Colossus]

one of the more frustrating experiences in steel beasts is the instant teleporting and swapping of crews into the gunner's seat- particularly when an AI gunner is killed but the next in line takes over instantly with a live ATGM in action, continues to steer it, so there isn't as much of a penalty in taking a penetrating hit when the crew can instantly recover and keep a missile tracking.

 

however, i am going to experiment with a workaround through the mission editor- perhaps assigning a damage condition (i.e., damage GPS or damage missile launcher) with a time delay to repair again- so that crew swapping and recovery isn't happening instantly and the vehicle is more degraded for the time being

[Ssnake]

It's quite possible that I had it wrong. Not going to argue against observed reality.

[Lumituisku]

21 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

There are four crew members on vehicles like the M1 platform, Leopard 2 platform, etc. 

 

Crewmembers can be incapacitated from damage, which includes things like ramming into a tree or boulder at top speed. 

 

If the vehicle with an incapacitated crew member is in range of a medical vehicle, they will be restored to normal operation in 15 minutes. 

 

Driver - if incapacitated, the vehicle is rendered immobile. 

 

Loader - if incapacitated, one of the surviving members in the turret (the TC by default, or the gunner if the TC is incapacitated) reloads between shots. If the gunner is the only one left, you will be unable to use any of the gunner's controls while putting the next round into the breach.

 

Gunner - if incapacitated, the TC can take over the position. Pretty sure this is done by default. 

 

TC - if incapacitated, you will not hear fire commands from the TC while playing as the loader, and none of the TC functions (slewing the turret when you can't identify, etc) will be executed. You are allowed to swap between the TC and the Gunner's stations. 

 

In practical terms: if you have only the TC, the gunner, or the loader incapacitated, you can fight the tank with a slight degradation in crew capability. You *should* seek a medic during a natural lull in the battle. 

 

If losing more than 1x crew member in the turret (or the driver at any point), you're tank is greatly degraded; you *need* to get it to a medic at the first opportunity. 

 

With that being said, just don't get hit. EZ. 🙃

 

Umm. So...  what am not understanding?  Gunner that is incapacitated  and in many vehicles just as, if not more difficult place than driver can be instantly switched to from commander seat.  And same applies to commander...  

actually WTF?   Really.  What is the deal with driver?  On tanks there could be a barrel on the way like on T-72  if tank has taken serious damage and barrel cannot be moved.. then I could understand this.  But there are lot of vehicles where drivers place is accessable perhaps even with more ease than that, and also from inside..   M113  for example.   So  now I am mystified.  How comes that gunner that is between commanders feet on Abrams or leopard.. can instantly be swictched to?  And not driver?     Player can at once jump to gunner seat from commander spot and start blasting. without need to learn how to use weapon position from commander position?  Also..  Loader being damaged is bit weird too.  that tank can still load and player can switch instantly between gunner and commander positions at will.  But really the inconcistancy that why we are allowed all that and being punished with tank becoming immobilized with driver damage I don't understand.   Okay.. On M1 the driver is laying back and that position can be awkward.  but then again, is it really that much more difficult than other positions on other vehicles?  Drivers on IFVS or some other tanks are not that difficult to access.. and in some armies they have these special straps to lift incapacitated crew member out of vehicle.

I am not a AFV crewmen.  So I don't know what is the big deal here. Please enlighten me.    What is the point of... this inconsitency? 

[Mirzayev]

@Lumituisku Lemme address a few of the things that you bring up.

 

1. The Commander is gonna be the most experienced person on the AFV. Him having the knowledge to switch to the Gunner's position is a non-issue: he's trained how to do it, and most likely (unless he is a Platoon Leader, for example) he has been a Gunner before. Worth mentioning that the Commander is also trained on conducting engagements when the Gunner is incapacitated in the US Army. I'd assume this applies to most western armies as well.

 

2. The Driver is, on most western MBTs, the single worst position to try to evacuate if he is incapacitated. You can expect a trained Medic team to take about 2-4 minutes just to get him out of the station safely when not in contact and not worried about local security. Yes, this changes based on vehicle. The HMMWV, for example, would just need someone to open the door and two people to drag the driver out. Which means that every vehicle would need to be examined and have different "parameters" for driver swap-out time. 

 

3.  Ssnake already addressed the issue of time between swapping crew members: "No, there is no appreciable delay between crew members switching roles. I agree that there should be one, possibly even a very significant one. I also agree that there should be more consequences. It's just not a top development priority at the moment (but not forgotten)." 

 

4. Having done a crew evacuation with a real casualty, there are a lot of "soft factors" that are not currently simulated. How long did it take the crew to mentally process that one of their crew members is incapacitated? Have they even discovered what happened? Is the crew actually able to mount any sort of coherent evacuation plan? (in this case, they weren't.) Is the crew able to help out the medics doing said evacuation? (again, in this case, no.) This was on a gunner range, and not in actual combat, so add even more stressors within combat.

 

5. For a great description of how incapacitated crew will play out in combat, read The Defense of Hill 781, Chapter 7, focusing specifically on the actions of SGT Schwartz's tank. 

 

 

[Mirzayev]

17 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

one of the more frustrating experiences in steel beasts is the instant teleporting and swapping of crews into the gunner's seat- particularly when an AI gunner is killed but the next in line takes over instantly with a live ATGM in action, continues to steer it, so there isn't as much of a penalty in taking a penetrating hit when the crew can instantly recover and keep a missile tracking.

 

however, i am going to experiment with a workaround through the mission editor- perhaps assigning a damage condition (i.e., damage GPS or damage missile launcher) with a time delay to repair again- so that crew swapping and recovery isn't happening instantly and the vehicle is more degraded for the time being

 

This should probably be its own bug report. 

[Gibsonm]

5 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

@Lumituisku Lemme address a few of the things that you bring up.

 

1. The Commander is gonna be the most experienced person on the AFV. Him having the knowledge to switch to the Gunner's position is a non-issue: he's trained how to do it, and most likely (unless he is a Platoon Leader, for example) he has been a Gunner before. Worth mentioning that the Commander is also trained on conducting engagements when the Gunner is incapacitated in the US Army. I'd assume this applies to most western armies as well.

 

Just to provide some reinforcement to this.

 

Most Western armies have the crew cross trained. That is you join the vehicle in one position and over time with experience, courses, promotions etc. you work your way up through the jobs until you are the Crew Commander.

 

In addition many Western tanks allow the Crew Commander to take over the engagement if required. The commander "from my position" tells the Gunner that the Crew Commander is now doing the shoot.

 

The Commander hasn't quite got the full suite of gunnery controls as the Gunner, but they can traverse, elevate, lase and fire.

 

That way if the Gunner were "incapacitated" and there was an urgent target the Commander could deal with it and then once the vehicle has withdrawn to a secure location, look to treating the Gunner.