Multicrew communication and vocabulary in english

[Lumituisku]

 

So I am wondering what would be good communication for crew in different situations in English language? 

 

 

For Commanders it goes something like this?

 

Ammunition type - Direction (clock) - Landmark - Target - Distance - Fire order ?  

 

Heat - Eleven - Right from crossroad - PC - Two hunred - Fire  

 

 

 

There are some problems in this.  Because of wide spectrum of vehicles..  from cold war to modern,  commanders and gunners have different cababilities.  So I suppose, ideally fire order should include things like: 

- Estimated need for lead, How to fire (from move, or stationary), How many times.  Ammunition type...  and Callsign

 

 

Then there are communications for actions.  For example for situation when current place is no longer safe and AFV should pull back and relocate. 

In Finnish word for this is "Irti"  but I do struggle to translate it to english.   "Pull back" "Break contact"  "Retrograde" ?  

 

I suppose I truly am most interested of what is AFV communication vocabulary and for what situations?    Over the years I have seen a very broad spectrum of words and methods used, so I suppose there is no correct one, and truly I would love to know...  what you guys use or would prefer to use and hear used.  What do you think would work best in Multicrew situations?  

[Gibsonm]

Tank fire control orders depend on a whole bunch of variables.

 

Number of targets.

Type of targets (which determines what weapon and or ammunition nature to use).

How urgent the target is (near or far, major threat or minor threat)

Are you one tank or working with a Section / Troop (Platoon)

....

 

Here might give you what you are after, but its not a single sheet of paper. : https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA156801.pdf

Or perhaps Chapter 7 of  ATP 3-20.15 (FM 3-20.15) here: https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/atp3-20-15.pdf

Of course the foundation to this is the "crew brief", normally given before you start moving from a secure position, which details actions for the crew.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Gibsonm

[Ssnake]

Calling out distances is an art that's becoming less critical in the age of the laser range finder, I think. Likewise the precise location, if you can override the turret and show the gunner what you mean. At the end of the day, if you're in a duel situation, you want to shave off as many seconds as possible.

Of course, where there's close visual proximity of multiple objects of potential interest, there's still a need for an efficient description of the intended target, so it never hurts to practice it.

 

In short, crew communication is also a function of the underlying fire control system and its capabilities. Show, don't tell, if you can.

[Lumituisku]

2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Calling out distances is an art that's becoming less critical in the age of the laser range finder, I think. Likewise the precise location, if you can override the turret and show the gunner what you mean. At the end of the day, if you're in a duel situation, you want to shave off as many seconds as possible.

Of course, where there's close visual proximity of multiple objects of potential interest, there's still a need for an efficient description of the intended target, so it never hurts to practice it.

 

In short, crew communication is also a function of the underlying fire control system and its capabilities. Show, don't tell, if you can.

 

Excatly, and there is still degraded mode gunnery where it is necessary.  Not to forget tanks like T-55 or Shotcal.  Also great many players do not want to commander to override turret as they feel like fighting the turret not understanding to release. Of course there is other side of coin that TC needs to tell that he is going to override / designate

 

And speaking of those two words... What is the difference?

 

 

[Mirzayev]

In general, fire commands are built on the following elements in the following order:

 

1. Alert.
2. Weapon or ammunition (optional).
3. Target description.
4. Direction.
5. Range (optional).
6. Method.
7. Control (optional).
8. Execution.
9. Termination.

 

Some examples:

 

Example A.

 

1. Gunner

2. SABOT

3. Tank

4. Designate Tank 

 

This command directs the gunner to index and fire a SABOT round at a tank. The Commander will designate the target by overriding the turret until the gunner can identify. 

 

Example B. 

 

1. Battlesight 

3. Tank

 

This is a quick command used to rapidly engage a target within battlesight range (usually 1,200 meters, but can be set to whatever the TC wants on an M1A2). This is deliberately shortened as far as detail to ensure that you maximize your response time. 

 

Example C. 

 

1. Gunner

2. SABOT

3.Tank, PC; Tank First

4.1 o'clock 

5. 2,500 meters. 

 

This triggers the gunner to engage a Tank and then a PC. After the gunner identifies the first target, TC may use a command like "Fire, Fire HEAT" to inform the loader to load HEAT as the next round, the Gunner to index HEAT, identify the PC, and fire when given then command by the TC.

 

While "tank first" is more appropriately classified as method, it is used here during target description for ease of understanding. 

 

Example D. 

 

1. Red

2. SABOT

3. 3x Tanks

4. TRP 4

7. Cross

8. At my command. 

 

In this example, a Platoon Leader in a prepared defense initiates a fire command to his platoon to engage 3x enemy tanks at TRP #4. Since the distance to the TRP is known, it is not given. Tanks will fire using the cross direct fire pattern (shown below) and will initiate fires on the Platoon Leader's Command. 

 

Some basics anyway. 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Mirzayev

[Gibsonm]

7 hours ago, Lumituisku said:

Of course there is other side of coin that TC needs to tell that he is going to override / designate

 

And speaking of those two words... What is the difference?

 

Well if you read the documents, .....

 

But basically.

 

"overide" means you take over the shoot - "From my position, ..." The Crew Commander* is now controlling the gun and can fire it using their controls.

 

"designate" means the Crew Commander brings the gun to the required position so the Gunner can continue the shoot (usually so the Crew Commander can look for the next tgt.

 

* We use "Crew Commander" as the drill are not just for Tank Commanders, but other vehicles as well.

[Lumituisku]

19 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Well if you read the documents, .....

 

But basically.

 

"overide" means you take over the shoot - "From my position, ..." The Crew Commander* is now controlling the gun and can fire it using their controls.

 

"designate" means the Crew Commander brings the gun to the required position so the Gunner can continue the shoot (usually so the Crew Commander can look for the next tgt.

 

* We use "Crew Commander" as the drill are not just for Tank Commanders, but other vehicles as well.

 

Working on it.  I am slow reader because I want to learn the stuff.     Thanks for clarification! 

 

I suppose my problem is that sometimes I hear commander to use  word / phrase "From my position"    when they engage with main gun.   So that has kind of got me confused too.  

 

3 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

In general, fire commands are built on the following elements in the following order:

 

1. Alert.
2. Weapon or ammunition (optional).
3. Target description.
4. Direction.
5. Range (optional).
6. Method.
7. Control (optional).
8. Execution.
9. Termination.

 

Awesome stuff!  Thank you! 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Lumituisku

[Higgs]

7 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

In general, fire commands are built on the following elements in the following order:

 

1. Alert.
2. Weapon or ammunition (optional).
3. Target description.
4. Direction.
5. Range (optional).
6. Method.
7. Control (optional).
8. Execution.
9. Termination.

 

Some examples:

 

Example A.

 

1. Gunner

2. SABOT

3. Tank

4. Designate Tank 

 

This command directs the gunner to index and fire a SABOT round at a tank. The Commander will designate the target by overriding the turret until the gunner can identify. 

 

Example B. 

 

1. Battlesight 

3. Tank

 

This is a quick command used to rapidly engage a target within battlesight range (usually 1,200 meters, but can be set to whatever the TC wants on an M1A2). This is deliberately shortened as far as detail to ensure that you maximize your response time. 

 

Example C. 

 

1. Gunner

2. SABOT

3.Tank, PC; Tank First

4.1 o'clock 

5. 2,500 meters. 

 

This triggers the gunner to engage a Tank and then a PC. After the gunner identifies the first target, TC may use a command like "Fire, Fire HEAT" to inform the loader to load HEAT as the next round, the Gunner to index HEAT, identify the PC, and fire when given then command by the TC.

 

While "tank first" is more appropriately classified as method, it is used here during target description for ease of understanding. 

 

Example D. 

 

1. Red

2. SABOT

3. 3x Tanks

4. TRP 4

7. Cross

8. At my command. 

 

In this example, a Platoon Leader in a prepared defense initiates a fire command to his platoon to engage 3x enemy tanks at TRP #4. Since the distance to the TRP is known, it is not given. Tanks will fire using the cross direct fire pattern (shown below) and will initiate fires on the Platoon Leader's Command. 

 

Some basics anyway. 

 

 

This is quite interesting because I'd like to compare it to the way we do it. Does the gunner also alert the crew or does he just start with the description.
If my TC sees a target he basically goes:

1. Ammo type

2. Designated and call out target. (For example tank).
3. Wait for "identified" and "up" to give fire order.

 

Also interesting would be how you alert the rest of the platoon. We just do the first step via radio and not only on internal com.

 

 

[Mirzayev]

16 minutes ago, Higgs said:

This is quite interesting because I'd like to compare it to the way we do it. Does the gunner also alert the crew or does he just start with the description.
If my TC sees a target he basically goes:

1. Ammo type

2. Designated and call out target. (For example tank).
3. Wait for "identified" and "up" to give fire order.

 

Also interesting would be how you alert the rest of the platoon. We just do the first step via radio and not only on internal com.

 

 

 

As with many things, "it depends" comes into play. 

 

a. A common alert is saying the position of the crew member to perform the action:

"Driver, up!"

"Gunner, HEAT, PC, designate PC!"

 

"Loader, coax, troops!"

 

b. A common SOP is that by leaving out the crew member from the alert, it defaults to the gunner.

"SABOT, Tank, TRP 5!"

 

c. Didn't mention the "other" things that you hear during a fire command on the previous post cause it focused mainly on the TC. Things to expect:

 

The Loader saying "up" when the gun is loaded, prepared to fire, and he is out of the way of the breach.

 

The Gunner saying "identified" when he sees the actual target.

 

d. A Platoon fire command would sound something like this:

 

"Red, SABOT, three tanks, Quadrant A, at my command."

 

*Momentary pause to give crews time to give the fire command to their vics.*

"Top hat." 

 

*Tanks move from turret down to hull down.*

 

"Fire and adjust!"

Edited March 19, 2022 by Mirzayev

[Higgs]

10 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

 

As with many things, "it depends" comes into play. 

 

a. A common alert is saying the position of the crew member to perform the action:

"Driver, up!"

"Gunner, HEAT, PC, designate PC!"

 

"Loader, coax, troops!"

 

b. A common SOP is that by leaving out the crew member from the alert, it defaults to the gunner.

"SABOT, Tank, TRP 5!"

 

c. Didn't mention the "other" things that you hear during a fire command on the previous post cause it focused mainly on the TC. Things to expect:

 

The Loader saying "up" when the gun is loaded, prepared to fire, and he is out of the way of the breach.

 

The Gunner saying "identified" when he sees the actual target.

 

d. A Platoon fire command would sound something like this:

 

"Red, SABOT, three tanks, Quadrant A, at my command."

 

*Momentary pause to give crews time to give the fire command to their vics.*

"Top hat." 

 

*Tanks move from turret down to hull down.*

 

"Fire and adjust!"

Ah yeah makes sense. Overall it appears to be fairly similar, with some minor exceptions.

Thank you for the answer.

[Lumituisku]

What I notice and am starting to feel, when comparing to what my Finnish friends why served on AFVs, that there are some significant differences in procedures that likely are due to several factors.

• Leopards have smaller Laser beam, and use last return by default hence, probadly more reliable on short distances as seen on Europe / Finland. 
• Terrain...  when typical combat distance is under 1000m, it does seem that every second is squuezed out making fire command and reactions as fast and effective as possible
• Modern equipment and significant crew training (trust / competency) makes a lot of parts from fire order, unnecessary. 
• Cultural differences in leadership and equality. In some countries it seems that while they have some hierarchy, there is slightly less need to enforce it constantly with stiff byrocachy. While in others it sounds like, commander seems like all knowing and others are almost like blind followers.

I would be really interested to learn how Canadians or British do their Fireorders and Crew communications.  It seems that there might be considerable differences to US example. I also wonder... if Australian is as close to US version as I think it to be?  They too operated some leopards in past, I think.  But.. I suppose distances there are far longer.  As for British, that is bit of mystery. 

 

And..  I would love to know how Russian, Ukrainian or Polish crews do their things too with older equipment to learn the differences there.. but that seems unlikely at the moment.   (unless learning from videos...  that I don't think I have heart to watch.)

Edited March 20, 2022 by Lumituisku
Had written a wrong assumption >.<

[Ssnake]

1 hour ago, Lumituisku said:

Leopards have smaller Laser beam, and use last return by default hence, probadly more reliable on short distances as seen on Europe / Finland.

Actually, the beam dispersion if .5 mil in pretty all the tanks. The difference with the M1 is that the aim circle in the reticule is a full mil in diameter unlike the Leo 2 where it's exactly the size of the laser cone, .5mil

[Lumituisku]

28 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Actually, the beam dispersion if .5 mil in pretty all the tanks. The difference with the M1 is that the aim circle in the reticule is a full mil in diameter unlike the Leo 2 where it's exactly the size of the laser cone, .5mil

 

Thank you.  I didn't know that. Goes to show that it isn't safe to assume anything.