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What is the definition of destroyed vehicles in SB?


F.T
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13 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Could be either.

It can be a catastrophic destruction (fire, or worse), or a combination of key component damages, or all of the crew, or any combination thereof.

In the above image, the 3D view of the tank is transparent and we can see the crew inside the tank. Does that mean the crew is hurt?

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Not necessarily (but in this case: Yes). The description in the text box in the lower right corner lists what actual damages occurred - here, the destruction of the vehicle. Each event with an HE explosion in it has "sub events" that you can view by using the little extra toggle buttons, which may then reveal what exactly the simulation result was.

 

A word of caution:

While we're not "making shit up" it's still important to keep in mind that our model is, by necessity, simplified. AAR events in Steel Beasts should not be used to try and win an argument that with a certain HE explosion the resulting framents must perforate armor X. The fragments that Steel Beasts generates are stochastic. Their distributions are based on widely accepted models (Gourney (fragment velocities), Taylor (fragment vectors), and Mott (fragment mass)) but it's still a stochastical model, not all ammunition types have been completely adapted to it, and there's always the discussion whether certain parameters are chosen correctly (typically, the model is open, but the parameters are classified, so we must estimate them).

Therefore, a virtual HE round in SB Pro might produce fewer and larger fragments (or smaller, and more of them) than it's physical counterpart. My expectation is that the discrepancies remain well under one order of magnitude - but can I guarantee it in every case? No.

Likewise, we're not simulating how shockwaves expand, get reflected, etc.; the way we're dealing with spall on the inside of homogeneous armor (which has long been discontinued in AFV design anyway) is probably using a relatively broad brush.

 

In a nutshell: You can have macro lens photographs of individual flowers. That's the level of detail that FEM analysis produces. You can have a camera snapshot from an airliner flying over a garden - the level of detail that a division level or higher wargame produces. Steel Beasts is the panorama painting of a garden full of flowers. Some of the flowers are painted in detail, others are colorful dots in the background. Each of these types of images produces an accurate picture within what it aims to do. But if you're a botanist trying to figure out the details of a certain flower, you need the macro lens photography. Putting a magnification glass on the panorama painting isn't going to help you find answers about a certain flower, it only tells you something about the paint that was used. Likewise, the scope of Steel Beasts is the tactical realm. Each scenario is based on (unspoken) assumptions of the strategic context in which a battle might occur. It's not going to answer your question about how many spare parts you will need to repair your tanks, etc.

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1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Not necessarily (but in this case: Yes). The description in the text box in the lower right corner lists what actual damages occurred - here, the destruction of the vehicle. Each event with an HE explosion in it has "sub events" that you can view by using the little extra toggle buttons, which may then reveal what exactly the simulation result was.

 

A word of caution:

While we're not "making shit up" it's still important to keep in mind that our model is, by necessity, simplified. AAR events in Steel Beasts should not be used to try and win an argument that with a certain HE explosion the resulting framents must perforate armor X. The fragments that Steel Beasts generates are stochastic. Their distributions are based on widely accepted models (Gourney (fragment velocities), Taylor (fragment vectors), and Mott (fragment mass)) but it's still a stochastical model, not all ammunition types have been completely adapted to it, and there's always the discussion whether certain parameters are chosen correctly (typically, the model is open, but the parameters are classified, so we must estimate them).

Therefore, a virtual HE round in SB Pro might produce fewer and larger fragments (or smaller, and more of them) than it's physical counterpart. My expectation is that the discrepancies remain well under one order of magnitude - but can I guarantee it in every case? No.

Likewise, we're not simulating how shockwaves expand, get reflected, etc.; the way we're dealing with spall on the inside of homogeneous armor (which has long been discontinued in AFV design anyway) is probably using a relatively broad brush.

 

In a nutshell: You can have macro lens photographs of individual flowers. That's the level of detail that FEM analysis produces. You can have a camera snapshot from an airliner flying over a garden - the level of detail that a division level or higher wargame produces. Steel Beasts is the panorama painting of a garden full of flowers. Some of the flowers are painted in detail, others are colorful dots in the background. Each of these types of images produces an accurate picture within what it aims to do. But if you're a botanist trying to figure out the details of a certain flower, you need the macro lens photography. Putting a magnification glass on the panorama painting isn't going to help you find answers about a certain flower, it only tells you something about the paint that was used. Likewise, the scope of Steel Beasts is the tactical realm. Each scenario is based on (unspoken) assumptions of the strategic context in which a battle might occur. It's not going to answer your question about how many spare parts you will need to repair your tanks, etc.

Thank you for your explanation. Where can I learn more details about AAR? Sb Wiki is too sketchy about AAR. 

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5 hours ago, F.T said:

Thank you for your explanation. Where can I learn more details about AAR? Sb Wiki is too sketchy about AAR. 

 

On what specifically? As far as the damage modeled?

 

The AAR is discussed in the SB manual. I'd give that a read if not already.

 

Generally AARs (in my use) have best served to showcase how BLUEFOR reacts to the effects of the OPFOR at a macro level; examples include showcasing how quickly an element responded to OPFOR action, if they remained in position too long, if the unit was not synchronized, etc. It is ultimately a tool to find areas to improve for future missions.

 

Damage taken is given in slightly more abstract terms in the AAR, such as heavily damaged, etc. I view these aspects as more showcasing realistic battlefield effects rather than focusing on the minutiae-based eaches (if you had fired slightly more to the right you would have hit the driver's hatch and gotten a kill in one round as opposed to two...)

 

 

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11 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

 

On what specifically? As far as the damage modeled?

 

The AAR is discussed in the SB manual. I'd give that a read if not already.

 

Generally AARs (in my use) have best served to showcase how BLUEFOR reacts to the effects of the OPFOR at a macro level; examples include showcasing how quickly an element responded to OPFOR action, if they remained in position too long, if the unit was not synchronized, etc. It is ultimately a tool to find areas to improve for future missions.

 

Damage taken is given in slightly more abstract terms in the AAR, such as heavily damaged, etc. I view these aspects as more showcasing realistic battlefield effects rather than focusing on the minutiae-based eaches (if you had fired slightly more to the right you would have hit the driver's hatch and gotten a kill in one round as opposed to two...)

 

 

I want to know what those colorful lines mean. I guess the thick line means hit trajectory, and the thin line means fragments. What does the color of the thin line mean? Does that mean the strength of the fragments?
I noticed the word "destroyed" in the explosion events window, sometimes in red, sometimes in black.

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4 hours ago, F.T said:

I noticed the word "destroyed" in the explosion events window, sometimes in red, sometimes in black.

As far as I can tell, when the damage is written in red colour, that means the event you're looking at caused it.

When the damaged is written in black, it means the vehicle had previously received damage and was hit another time.

 

So when destroyed is written in red, the projectile/explosion you're looking at in this very moment, is what destroyed the vehicle.

When written in black, the vehicle had previously been destroyed and has been affected by another event some time later.

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4 hours ago, F.T said:

I want to know what those colorful lines mean. I guess the thick line means hit trajectory, and the thin line means fragments. What does the color of the thin line mean? Does that mean the strength of the fragments?
I noticed the word "destroyed" in the explosion events window, sometimes in red, sometimes in black.

"large" beams are the primary projectiles:

-brown: MG sMG

-red; kinetic energy projectile

-blue: RPG-type weapon

-Green: ATGM

-yellow: HE

-orange/dark yellow: HEAT

-white: Smoke

 

the small beams are secondary fragments.

They are shaded white to red, whit white beeing the lowest energy and red beeing the highest energy fragments

 

 

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6 hours ago, F.T said:

I want to know what those colorful lines mean. I guess the thick line means hit trajectory, and the thin line means fragments. What does the color of the thin line mean? Does that mean the strength of the fragments?
I noticed the word "destroyed" in the explosion events window, sometimes in red, sometimes in black.

Red: Kinetic Energy

Yellow: High Explosive

Blue: RPG

Green: ATGM

Brown: MG

 

Diameter scales with caliber of the attacking munition.

Fragments are shaded from red (strongest) to white (weakest)

 

New damages are listed in red color

If a damage is listed in black, it was damaged already.

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