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When the laser ranging is done, reticle moves to the left in the GPS of challenger 2.


F.T
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9 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

Yes... yes it does. 

 

That is a calculation of lead. The reticle isn't stabilized on both planes, so you'll see some "lag" and offset.

I'm going to hit a stationary target. And I've cleared the lead.

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45 minutes ago, F.T said:

I'm going to hit a stationary target. And I've cleared the lead.

You have HESH loaded, e.g.  a round with spin-stabilized shell, so drift compensation remains applied.

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55 minutes ago, Jartsev said:

You have HESH loaded, e.g.  a round with spin-stabilized shell, so drift compensation remains applied.

That is right

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57 minutes ago, Jartsev said:

You have HESH loaded, e.g.  a round with spin-stabilized shell, so drift compensation remains applied.

But I found that when I turned on the thermal imager, the laser range finder's aim point in the GPS was not on the reticle(it's actually on the left side of the reticle), so I would get a wrong distance(3956m).

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15 minutes ago, F.T said:

But I found that when I turned on the thermal imager, the laser range finder's aim point in the GPS was not on the reticle(it's actually on the left side of the reticle), so I would get a wrong distance(3956m).

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laser range finder has no "aim point". its more an aim area...

The laser is not perfectly paralell, and 2995m the laser "dot" is a few meters wide...

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20 minutes ago, F.T said:

But I found that when I turned on the thermal imager, the laser range finder's aim point in the GPS was not on the reticle(it's actually on the left side of the reticle), so I would get a wrong distance(3956m).

There is no misalignment, as far as I can see. You have last return logic enabled and at ~3km range there is a huge chance of getting return from the terrain behind target, since laser beam has some divergence and your lay on  target could be not necessary perfect.

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12 minutes ago, Jartsev said:

There is no misalignment, as far as I can see. You have last return logic enabled and at ~3km range there is a huge chance of getting return from the terrain behind target, since laser beam has some divergence and your lay on  target could be not necessary perfect.

 

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30 minutes ago, F.T said:

When I turn off the thermal imager, the actual GPS looks like this.

 

Look at Challenger-2 tank. Think, where  gunner's primary sight and thermal imager are physically located(hint- not at the same place, and this  explained a bit in the briefing of relevant tutorial scenario).

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9 hours ago, Jartsev said:

Look at Challenger-2 tank. Think, where  gunner's primary sight and thermal imager are physically located(hint- not at the same place, and this  explained a bit in the briefing of relevant tutorial scenario).

In the case of APFSDS, things became normal.

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14 minutes ago, F.T said:

Obviously, my problem isn't that the gun's sight fall off the bottom of the sight picture

 So with Hesh chosen the Lazer measuring spot on TOGS gives you too short distance when you laze.

 

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46 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

 

 So with Hesh chosen the Lazer measuring spot on TOGS gives you too short distance when you laze.

 

When in the commander's position, you can use HESH normally by simply aiming at the target.

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6 hours ago, F.T said:

Obviously, my problem isn't that the gun's sight fall off the bottom of the sight picture.

Problem is with aiming at extreme range, while using 1st generation thermal imager. To re-lase you need to  dump range and lead, and then to re-lay reticle on target, and if range is over 2.5km this is tricky because of low thermal image resolution(and with HESH loaded you need apply more input to bring reticle on target); you might think  that your aim is perfect, while in reality it is not quite so.

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The problem lies

a.

in the placement of the thermal imager right on top of the gun mantlet. If the gun tube is elevated sufficiently (given choice of ammunition and range), it would block the view to the target even if the electronic stabilizer of the thermal sight could completely compensate, which it can't (and why would it, it'd be pointless anyway)

b.

in pushing HESH rounds to extreme engagement ranges for which it is not very well suited, for reasons now all to obvious. But also, because HESH is a slow round with notable drift, high crosswind sensitivity (due to the long time of flight), high sentitivity to ranging errors (due to the steep fall angle in the last third of the trajectory), and only mediocre accuracy (particularly if not stored properly (that is, upright) - the soft HE filler will "slosh around" inside the projectile; the viscosity of the HE/Paraffin mix may be closer to asphalt than to honey, but given enough years in storage the center of gravity of the round can shift off spin axis, with terrible consequences to accuracy).

 

Yes, yes, yes... the longest recorded direct tank to tank kill was that fabled 5,500m HESH engagement on a T-55 - but it's long been established that the gunner, despite the highest skills and undoubtely best effort was still lucky since the target size at that range was under the HESH round's standarddeviation.

Skill and luck are not mutually exclusive. He won bragging rights, but nobody has demonstrated that it can be repeated with consistency (because it's impossible).

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5 hours ago, Jartsev said:

Problem is with aiming at extreme range, while using 1st generation thermal imager. To re-lase you need to  dump range and lead, and then to re-lay reticle on target, and if range is over 2.5km this is tricky because of low thermal image resolution(and with HESH loaded you need apply more input to bring reticle on target); you might think  that your aim is perfect, while in reality it is not quite so.

 

5 hours ago, Jartsev said:

Problem is with aiming at extreme range, while using 1st generation thermal imager. To re-lase you need to  dump range and lead, and then to re-lay reticle on target, and if range is over 2.5km this is tricky because of low thermal image resolution(and with HESH loaded you need apply more input to bring reticle on target); you might think  that your aim is perfect, while in reality it is not quite so.

In the commander's position, however, the thermal imager can normally be used to measure the distance, so there is no problem hitting stationary targets at least 3km.

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On 5/24/2022 at 9:47 AM, Ssnake said:

The problem lies

a.

in the placement of the thermal imager right on top of the gun mantlet. If the gun tube is elevated sufficiently (given choice of ammunition and range), it would block the view to the target even if the electronic stabilizer of the thermal sight could completely compensate, which it can't (and why would it, it'd be pointless anyway)

 

That placement always struck me as odd and a bit restrictive, but it's being done away with with Challenger 3. 

UK-army-28thMar-1038x778.jpg

 

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Keep in mind also (and someone may have mentioned it here already) that the actual Challenger 2 has a feature that is not modeled in SB, which is used for extreme range HESH engagements. (We would love to model it, but the UK Army was not interested, and its not like its a vital feature, and there are always so many more important things to do). 

 

Anyway, my memory is quite fuzzy here, and someone may know more, but basically -- at extreme ranges, the HESH round is, let's say, not extremely accurate. It's a bit like you are firing a trebuchet at a point target -- an exaggeration, but probably not far off. When the HESH round impacts off-target at extreme range, you observe the fall of the shot, then press buttons to adjust for the next shot (either Aided Lay, Add, Drop, Line, or some or all of these are used, I don't recall anymore). This feeds a correction/estimate into the computer IIRC, or simply just adjusts the reticle with add/drop, then you reengage. In this way you basically bracket the target and walk it in, like indirect fire. In SB, you have to adjust manually yourself -- basically "Kentucky Windage" it, which is essentially the same process but without whatever assistance the FCS would be giving here from the actual feature.  But the point is, its not precision-accurate at extreme ranges. 

 

That account from 1991 of a Challenger killing at tank at 5+km with HESH, well, certainly the target had to be stationary, and I don't want to guess how many rounds it took to hit it -- who knows. But that's how myths become legends.   But I think in general, the longer the range, the more you should be using HESH primarily (I assume here) just for anti-personnel (area) engagements. But a real CR2 crewman would have to say for certain (if they even could in today's paranoia climate). 

 

Maybe that helps illuminate the issue on why extreme range HESH engagements on the CR2 are so awkward.

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5 hours ago, Volcano said:

Keep in mind also (and someone may have mentioned it here already) that the actual Challenger 2 has a feature that is not modeled in SB, which is used for extreme range HESH engagements. (We would love to model it, but the UK Army was not interested, and its not like its a vital feature, and there are always so many more important things to do). 

 

Anyway, my memory is quite fuzzy here, and someone may know more, but basically -- at extreme ranges, the HESH round is, let's say, not extremely accurate. It's a bit like you are firing a trebuchet at a point target -- an exaggeration, but probably not far off. When the HESH round impacts off-target at extreme range, you observe the fall of the shot, then press buttons to adjust for the next shot (either Aided Lay, Add, Drop, Line, or some or all of these are used, I don't recall anymore). This feeds a correction/estimate into the computer IIRC, or simply just adjusts the reticle with add/drop, then you reengage. In this way you basically bracket the target and walk it in, like indirect fire. In SB, you have to adjust manually yourself -- basically "Kentucky Windage" it, which is essentially the same process but without whatever assistance the FCS would be giving here from the actual feature.  But the point is, its not precision-accurate at extreme ranges. 

 

That account from 1991 of a Challenger killing at tank at 5+km with HESH, well, certainly the target had to be stationary, and I don't want to guess how many rounds it took to hit it -- who knows. But that's how myths become legends.   But I think in general, the longer the range, the more you should be using HESH primarily (I assume here) just for anti-personnel (area) engagements. But a real CR2 crewman would have to say for certain (if they even could in today's paranoia climate). 

 

Maybe that helps illuminate the issue on why extreme range HESH engagements on the CR2 are so awkward.

I don't want to complain about the accuracy of the HESH.  Just to get a better shot at the HESH, I'd better override the gun in the commander's position.

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