When the laser ranging is done, reticle moves to the left in the GPS of challenger 2.

[Stuart666]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:01 AM, Volcano said:

Keep in mind also (and someone may have mentioned it here already) that the actual Challenger 2 has a feature that is not modeled in SB, which is used for extreme range HESH engagements. (We would love to model it, but the UK Army was not interested, and its not like its a vital feature, and there are always so many more important things to do). 

 

Anyway, my memory is quite fuzzy here, and someone may know more, but basically -- at extreme ranges, the HESH round is, let's say, not extremely accurate. It's a bit like you are firing a trebuchet at a point target -- an exaggeration, but probably not far off. When the HESH round impacts off-target at extreme range, you observe the fall of the shot, then press buttons to adjust for the next shot (either Aided Lay, Add, Drop, Line, or some or all of these are used, I don't recall anymore). This feeds a correction/estimate into the computer IIRC, or simply just adjusts the reticle with add/drop, then you reengage. In this way you basically bracket the target and walk it in, like indirect fire. In SB, you have to adjust manually yourself -- basically "Kentucky Windage" it, which is essentially the same process but without whatever assistance the FCS would be giving here from the actual feature.  But the point is, its not precision-accurate at extreme ranges. 

 

That account from 1991 of a Challenger killing at tank at 5+km with HESH, well, certainly the target had to be stationary, and I don't want to guess how many rounds it took to hit it -- who knows. But that's how myths become legends.   But I think in general, the longer the range, the more you should be using HESH primarily (I assume here) just for anti-personnel (area) engagements. But a real CR2 crewman would have to say for certain (if they even could in today's paranoia climate). 

 

Maybe that helps illuminate the issue on why extreme range HESH engagements on the CR2 are so awkward.

 

The long range shoot was conducted with fin, probably L23 or possibly XL26. The guy who did it was talking about it on ARRSE, first round hit.

 

[Stuart666]

On 5/25/2022 at 7:05 PM, ChrisWerb said:

That placement always struck me as odd and a bit restrictive, but it's being done away with with Challenger 3. 

 

Hi Chris,

It's not really a problem I gather. I talked this over with a Vickers engineer on Tanknet and he laughed at me when I suggested a similar thing. I believe the only time it's not going to be looking at a target is extreme long range Hesh shoots, and you will be shooting at essentially area targets at that point anyway.

 

 

[12Alfa]

4 hours ago, Stuart666 said:

Hi Chris,

It's not really a problem I gather. I talked this over with a Vickers engineer on Tanknet and he laughed at me when I suggested a similar thing. I believe the only time it's not going to be looking at a target is extreme long range Hesh shoots, and you will be shooting at essentially area targets at that point anyway.

 

 

Long range Hesh engagements as we are trained in , is used with the range drum, and the leveling bubble, after the range is determined. The 76mm was very good at this type of indirect, semi direct engagements out to 6K. Although it does require a fair bit of practice for desired results at impact.

 As a troop shoot, directed by the Tp Ldr you become a arty unit using the above, as a Sqn shoot it has a effect of a TOS/MRLS.

 

As stated, long range HESH direct fire has challenges (word play) for the gunner.

[Stuart666]

6 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

Long range Hesh engagements as we are trained in , is used with the range drum, and the leveling bubble, after the range is determined. The 76mm was very good at this type of indirect, semi direct engagements out to 6K. Although it does require a fair bit of practice for desired results at impact.

 As a troop shoot, directed by the Tp Ldr you become a arty unit using the above, as a Sqn shoot it has a effect of a TOS/MRLS.

 

As stated, long range HESH direct fire has challenges (word play) for the gunner.

Yes, Ill well believe it.

The gunner on ARRSE who took the long range shot in Operation Granby, said it wasnt his best shot. The one he said he was most proud of was a HESH kill on a moving T62, at something like 1500 metres IIRC. Which illustrates that HESH really isnt going to be used much where you really need the TOG's to be decoupled from elevation. Ive got a nagging feeling that in the Challenger 1 manual, you COULD decouple it. But realistically, when you knew the range to target, its hardly as if you would need the TOGS again. You probably could watch fall of shot after return to battery anyway.

 

 

[IrishHussar]

So just to clarify a few points for you.
SB Pro PE models the Challenger 2 tank, Operation Granby units used Challenger (1). The FCS are drastically different between the two vehicles.

I can't give much informed input about CR2 FCS as I only used it for a short time over 20 years ago however on Challenger 1 I know the facts inside out.

Challenger 1 when firing Hesh would give you a full balistic calculation out to 9999 metres. Further out you could use the Quadrant Fire Control (QFC) out to 14500ish.

  

[F.T]

24 minutes ago, IrishHussar said:

So just to clarify a few points for you.
SB Pro PE models the Challenger 2 tank, Operation Granby units used Challenger (1). The FCS are drastically different between the two vehicles.

I can't give much informed input about CR2 FCS as I only used it for a short time over 20 years ago however on Challenger 1 I know the facts inside out.

Challenger 1 when firing Hesh would give you a full balistic calculation out to 9999 metres. Further out you could use the Quadrant Fire Control (QFC) out to 14500ish.

  

So you were a tank crew. That's awesome!