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Early Abrams armor package confusion


Richardguy
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On 7/26/2022 at 10:44 PM, Richardguy said:

I'm sorry about the clusterfuck that has become this thread.

 

All I wanted to know is - Did the M1A1 get the BRL-2 Composite in the hull? If not, which tank before the M1A2 SEP received improved hull armor over the base M1?

 

 

BRL-2 is a target developed for 1976-gun trials.  It isn't related to the M1A1.

 

The IPM1 and M1A1 used an armor described as having KE back packs made of high-density material. The design hand off was in 1979 for testing. 

 

 

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@Ssnake

Just out of curiosity what is going on with the Abrams family losing gun stabilization for 60 seconds after a HEAT/HE impact? Noticed this in other tanks too but even taking a non-penetrating hit from a PG-15 is causing a loss of gun stabilization which totally fries the traverse until I set the system to emergency mode.

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7 hours ago, Richardguy said:

@Ssnake

... Noticed this in other tanks too but even taking a non-penetrating hit from a PG-15 is causing a loss of gun stabilization which totally fries the traverse until I set the system to emergency mode.

To all this there's a speculative, an instructive, and the part with which I'm totally unhappy.

The speculative part is that we don't know at which threshold an external shockwave can influence the gyroscopes inside the tank that are the reference for the stabilization system. Maybe they are better shielded, but of course the specific thresholds are classified/buried in papers to which we have no access, so we could argue all day whether something should happen or not in this specific constellation.

 

The instructive part is, getting hit is bad, and the player should do what he can to avoid getting hit in the first place. Creating minor inconvenience penalties such as this are, hopefully, an incentive to stop acting reckless (you may still be daring when it's worth a try, but then be prepared to get your equipment damaged in the process).

 

Finally, I would like to dive a bit deeper into the symptoms that component damages give you rather than a red blinking damage list. Like, a gyroscope that no longer has its nominal RPM is no longer a valid reference for the stabilization system, which it doesn't know, so we should experience erratic turret and gun movement. I hope to bring these symptoms into a future version of Steel Beasts, but for that we need to treat these gyroscopes and other elements as components in the code rather than to hard-code a set of specific responses between which we then randomize.

 

In any case, you learned that if you have such a stabilization damage, switching back to (unstabilized) emergency mode is the correct response to keep the tank able to deliver precision fire. So even the simplified implementation apparently had a learning effect. Now you know why. ;)

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all tanks which survive a HEAT impact experience at the minimum loss of stabilization and radio comms- hit location does not matter. it is 100 percent likely to occur; it is just that players may not notice the effect as much if they use say, the leopard I, t-72, t-62 or t-55, since the damage often comes with additional damages or outright kills the vehicle, then the effect looks more random and goes unnoticed. but in a vehicle like the M1A1 or leopard 2, where the HEAT impact often is just limited to loss of radio and stabilization, then the pattern becomes more noticeable.

 

i wouldn't care about it if it weren't for the fact that my brain and my reflexes are already trained to respond to it- even when i see the rockets and the rounds in the air, i know immediately i am about to lose stabilization and i am ready to switch modes- which is probably not particularly good training value. but you have to see the pattern first to understand it- and once that happens, it cannot be unseen

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

To all this there's a speculative, an instructive, and the part with which I'm totally unhappy.

The speculative part is that we don't know at which threshold an external shockwave can influence the gyroscopes inside the tank that are the reference for the stabilization system. Maybe they are better shielded, but of course the specific thresholds are classified/buried in papers to which we have no access, so we could argue all day whether something should happen or not in this specific constellation.

 

The instructive part is, getting hit is bad, and the player should do what he can to avoid getting hit in the first place. Creating minor inconvenience penalties such as this are, hopefully, an incentive to stop acting reckless (you may still be daring when it's worth a try, but then be prepared to get your equipment damaged in the process).

 

Finally, I would like to dive a bit deeper into the symptoms that component damages give you rather than a red blinking damage list. Like, a gyroscope that no longer has its nominal RPM is no longer a valid reference for the stabilization system, which it doesn't know, so we should experience erratic turret and gun movement. I hope to bring these symptoms into a future version of Steel Beasts, but for that we need to treat these gyroscopes and other elements as components in the code rather than to hard-code a set of specific responses between which we then randomize.

 

In any case, you learned that if you have such a stabilization damage, switching back to (unstabilized) emergency mode is the correct response to keep the tank able to deliver precision fire. So even the simplified implementation apparently had a learning effect. Now you know why. ;)

All of this, to be frank, makes playing Instant Action missions pretty miserable compared to how it used to be.

 

I know we're not supposed to be getting hit. The armor is not a totally reliable shield, but surviving IA missions requires the ability to make accurate hits very rapidly on moving targets, aggressive berm drills, and good placement of supporting fires. The 100% probability, as noted by @Captain_Colossus, makes these scenarios just brutal to play as you can do nothing but retreat and twiddle your thumbs while in a turret-down position and take note of the increasing number of vehicles bearing down on you.

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2 minutes ago, Richardguy said:

All of this, to be frank, makes playing Instant Action missions pretty miserable compared to how it used to be.

 

I'm unsure about "how it used to be", but Instant Action scenarios aren't meant to be "winnable", unless your definition of winning is lasting longer than last time you played in the same vehicle.

 

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The M1A1 Gyroscopes can take a heavy impacts and high Overpressure with slightly damaging effects. Got to remember these get slammed around during Field Training Maneuvers. I actually have see one get caught of in the Turret while traversing and ending up damaging the Turret Screen and not so much the Gyroscope Protection Cover. After that event the FF Gyroscope passed the 1800 test. I have seen some fail during Testing and after being hit with a Hammer, it would pass. The M1A2 has a backup Stabilization System as the Tank tries to keep the FCS in a Stabilization Fighting Capability until a component completely fails. SB damaging models are very basic as it’s not a maintenance Simulator but at the same time it’s a great Crew Training tool as teaching the Crew to fight from a degraded environment after being hit and taking damages.

Edited by Assassin 7
Grammer
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