Bradley vs Sagger...?

[iamfritz]

Has anyone successfully used the Bradley's 25mm to shoot down incoming AT missiles?

[Grenny]

Sounds very very very unlikely....

[iamfritz]

I wanted to post a link to the account of this happening in the 2003 invasion but I can't find anything but the upgraded Bradley systems. But a Bradley gunner got awarded a kill for shooting down a missile headed toward it. Maybe it's in one of my Armor or other books... f anyone can help I'd love it.

[Ssnake]

Given enough engagements I suppose it will happen eventually. No doubt, a lot of luck was involved if it happened, but luck prefers the prepared, of course.

[BlackDeath]

Is it actually (and theorically) possible in Steel Beasts? 

[Ssnake]

I don't think so, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.

[BlackDeath]

Did some test, it didn't work out using 25mm, canister, heat rounds, mgs. Or I am a bad shooter

[Mirzayev]

Two best options for your survival.

 

1. Pop smoke and get behind cover/concealment. 

 

2. Fire HE at the launcher if it is dismounted and identified. 

[Iarmor]

1 meter/sec is about 2 knots. The Sagger missile is slower than a jet fighter, but also much smaller of course.

In two cases during the 1973 war, Syrian Styx anti-ship missiles (much faster than the Sagger, but also bigger) were shot down by .50 cal fire from Israeli Sa'ar missile boats.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Iarmor

[iamfritz]

Imma flood try this tonight.

 

Will post and announce my results.

 

Unless I spontaneously combust driving around town on errands.

[Ssnake]

For the record, I think it's a waste of your time.

[iamfritz]

Sorry, met a girl. forgot to do this. Will try again soon.

 

[Mirzayev]

 

That was surprisingly consistent and easy. 

 

Of note: it doesn't appear in the AAR under events. So you can't brag about how cool you are to your buddies without video evidence. 

 

This was incorrect. See here: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/16136-bradley-vs-sagger/?do=findComment&comment=227769

Edited August 1, 2022 by Mirzayev

[Ssnake]

Didn't expect that - but: Nice!

Wouldn't expect this to work with missiles that have no 3D missile body. Now try that against incoming HEAT and HESH gun projectiles...

[Mirzayev]

I'd also not recommend doing it as your #1 action. You can't do it at all. 

 

1. It is pretty gamey. You'd be shaking like a leaf IRL, your T&E device isn't as responsive as a mouse. Your crew is basically committed to dying if something goes wrong. Etc. 

 

2. You've got to see the missile to engage it. This is hard. Even when I knew exactly where it was coming from it took time to acquire. 

 

3. If you do see the launch signature, better actions are to get out of the missile's LOS, or kill the launcher. Either way keeps you alive and prevents the launcher from firing again immediately. Killing the missile in flight just means another Sagger is gonna be incoming shortly towards your exposed vehicle.

 

4. You are gonna burn through ammo doing this. I picked the M2HB cause it is fairly flat shooting, has a lot of ammo available, and reloads pretty quickly. Plus it is an M2HB; one going out of the fight to reload isn't a huge deal. Compare that to now losing 25% of your platoon's combat power for 5 minutes+ cause they burned through their AP box's ammo supply. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Mirzayev

[RogueSnake79]

As Ssnake stated in the Hype thread, all ATGM's flight characteristics have been updated to be more realistic in the new release.   And the rule seems to be generally that the older they are, the wilder they fly.    And the Sagger is now, more wild.   As it always should have been, based on what you can see in videos. 

 

You should still be able to pull it off, shooting it, but now with more street cred.  

[CalAB]

Seeing you post in a thread RogueSnake79 during a wait for an upgrade release is like seeing the light at the end of a tunnel. 

[Ssnake]

Also, long MG bursts will have the gun wander out from the aim tue to compound recoil. So, some fire discipline will also be required. And I have opened ticket #11159 to add such AAR events.

[Mirzayev]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Also, long MG bursts will have the gun wander out from the aim tue to compound recoil. So, some fire discipline will also be required. And I have opened ticket #11159 to add such AAR events.

 

The plot thickens. 

 

 

Bottom line: it isn't hitting the missile, but is suppressing the missile team which causes them to cease tracking. 

[Lumituisku]

Makes me wonder... How can AVPS disable incoming heat projectiles if those dont have "body"

 

So i guess it's just math then. Numbers and rules dictate if HE warhead will land vicinity of AVPS to react and counter.

 

And also.. with 50cal.. it is probably more ease than on a tank where optics are not centered with weapon firing.  Like.. i often struggle to hit things with MG because shots often land slightly left or right. Also dispersion is a thing too... Not exactly sea wizard. Or what is that missile defense system used on ships. 

[Captain_Colossus]

3 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

I'd also not recommend doing it as your #1 action.

 

1. It is pretty gamey. You'd be shaking like a leaf IRL, your T&E device isn't as responsive as a mouse. Your crew is basically committed to dying if something goes wrong. Etc. 

 

2. You've got to see the missile to engage it. This is hard. Even when I knew exactly where it was coming from it took time to acquire. 

 

3. If you do see the launch signature, better actions are to get out of the missile's LOS, or kill the launcher. Either way keeps you alive and prevents the launcher from firing again immediately. Killing the missile in flight just means another Sagger is gonna be incoming shortly towards your exposed vehicle.

 

4. You are gonna burn through ammo doing this. I picked the M2HB cause it is fairly flat shooting, has a lot of ammo available, and reloads pretty quickly. Plus it is an M2HB; one going out of the fight to reload isn't a huge deal. Compare that to now losing 25% of your platoon's combat power for 5 minutes+ cause they burned through their AP box's ammo supply. 

 

i'd rather hope this isn't possible in the current state. there is already a disadvantage to the missile launcher which is related to the fact that unbuttoned vehicle commanders can never be shot. anytime a missile is launched at a vehicle, that vehicle is always instantly alerted it is being fired upon. it may not necessarily know the direction or the source, but it knows there is a missile inbound coming from somewhere at the exact instant the missile operator pulls the trigger, sending the vehicle into search mode looking for the launcher (you'll notice this yourself if you are the gunner and suddenly you hear the TC buttoning up for no obvious reason- this is often the AI of your TC sensing a missile launch). there have been many times a vehicle such as a tank which has killed me when i had the drop on it and fired a missile first- even at the tank's rear aspect from 2 or 3 km away, which was enough time for the vehicle to detect the launch, spin 180 degrees and get a shot off and kill me. this is related to the fact that the moment you try and shoot an exposed TC with machine guns, coax, .50 cal, drop artillery, or whatever, the moment you pull the trigger or the moment the artillery rounds are is withing range, the AI TC automatically knows it and goes straight down the hatch and cannot be killed. so, it doesn't matter how distant or how exposed or under concealment or cover the ATGM launcher is, the moment the trigger is pulled, you are telegraphing yourself to the AI- the ability to consistently shoot down the missile on top of being detected just would compound the risk exposure for the ATGM operators

Edited August 1, 2022 by Captain_Colossus

[Mirzayev]

Did some more testing using some events.

 

A dismounted missile team will lose track if "under direct fire" is true. Suppressing the general area works to cause them to lose the missile in flight. You don't have to hit the actually team, just get close enough so that they report that they are under fire. 

 

Vehicle missile teams continue to track, even if "under direct fire" is true. Suppressing the general area will not work against vehicles; you need to hit the actual vehicle and damage something related to the launcher (the gunner, the launcher itself, destroy the vehicle entirely, etc.) A HEAT/HE round exploding nearby might do this. 

 

What does this all mean? 

 

1. The safest way to stop an ATGM from killing you is to break line of sight. Put something solid between you and it.

 

2. Dismounted missile teams WILL respond to area suppression, even if not hit by the rounds.

 

3. Vehicles WILL NOT respond to area suppression. You need to hit them with a round, or fragments from a round, and do damage to the launcher or launching crewman. 

 

4. From what I can tell, this only affects the AI. If you are manually guiding the missile to target, you can still hit even if being suppressed. 

 

As for shooting a missile down in SB: I've run this test multiple times (at least 30+ at this point.) I've not been able to actually shoot down a missile. What I have been able to do is suppress the missile team and cause them to cease tracking. Others can continue to try if they wish, but I'm going to assume at this point that if it is even possible, it is so unlikely that it isn't actually relevant. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Mirzayev

[Mirzayev]

4 minutes ago, Captain_Colossus said:

 

i'd rather hope this isn't possible in the current state.

 

It isn't. See here: https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/16136-bradley-vs-sagger/?do=findComment&comment=227769

[BlackDeath]

My take on tests using differents calibers : i hoped schrapnels would do the trick for high calibers

M2A2 using HE

M1A2 using HE & Canisters

CV90 

HMMWV with .50

Not a single sagger missile destroyed. Since eny is BRDM instead of inf., no suppression either.