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AI Infantry observation skill to good


Kingtiger
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Okay since 4.3 Ive noticed that infantry on infantry fighting has become REAL hard with allot of casualties which I found was a good thing until i notice how I never saw the AI but the AI kept killing me. So I ran some tests and I would say that the AI spotting ability vs other infantry is a little bit over the top so to say.

 

Let me introduce my case:
Enemy infantry squad are located 600m out with observation away from the blue spotter, so they have their back against the single spotter inside the forest tiles. between them are open area, no obstacles for observation.
While the spotter are laying still the enemy is not observing him. But just by crawling - which is supposed to be the most sneakeast way to do it, they spot him 600m behind them and turn around and engage him. If you try to crawl or walk they spot him even quicker.

Next test location is with both sides being in a forest. Red still with their back towards the blue spotter and the spotter gets around 330m behind them crawling before being engaged.

I have tried this with sniper in guille suit as well and the only difference was for the blue sniper in the forest-forest location, he got around 100m from the enemy before being discovered and engaged.

 

I have tried different quality settings, but even elite on blue and untrained on red seems to have no effect of the spotting skills of the AI infantry.

 

My case here is that with a infantry squad observing 12 o clock its hard to see a crawling person 600m away over an open field inside a forest edge, or see a crawling person inside a forest crawling 300m away. Normaly you only have like 1 guy covering the squads six o clock and the results I am seeing here is almost like the entire squad is observing six o clock with binos.

 

How to replicate:
Launch the scenario, order the spotter or sniper to crawl forward inside the forest and see how the AI infantry turns around and shoot them up.

 

 

 

/KT

AI_Inf_skill_test.sce

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A lot of small bugs and issues with infantry have been addressed in 4.3 -- issues with their line of sight checks, and things like that, but of course this probably means that they have become more aware of their surroundings versus other infantry. Its another case of fixing and improving something that makes the AI better, and some people might think its now too good in some situations. Sometimes bugs or broken routines might make the infantry feel more believable, in some situations. (But what it might usually come down to is what people are used to.)

 

This area is something we are constantly paying attention to, though. We may make some small adjustments here to make it more difficult to spot crawling or prone troops, but we must also keep in mind that usually in most cases the user can clearly see the enemy troops when the AI spots them, so its a fine balance between making them too dumb, or too smart.  

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1 hour ago, Volcano said:

this probably means that they have become more aware of their surroundings versus other infantry

It's great.

 

1 hour ago, Volcano said:

and some people might think its now too good in some situations

Great. Keep making the AI infantry better and more challenging, but I'll also keep asking for playable rifle infantry - to level the playing field.

 

One of the arguments for not adding playable rifle infantry was that it would be an unfair advantage towards AI - if you level that challenge then there's no need to hold back anymore. 

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1 hour ago, Volcano said:

We may make some small adjustments here to make it more difficult to spot crawling or prone troops, but we must also keep in mind that usually in most cases the user can clearly see the enemy troops when the AI spots them, so its a fine balance between making them too dumb, or too smart.  

 

Agreed, its a fine line.

 

Sometimes the player at F8 has much better visibility than the unit crawling through the long grass. But sometimes the unit see better (esp. in close forest where F8 just gives you a view of the leaf in your face).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Okay bumping this again.
You really need to adjust that infantry AI spotting. Right now its close to unplayable with infantry vs infantry, as soon as you get in contact you die as they spot you so much faster then you can spot them. 

I have played SB since 2002 era and right now you are basicly back to how we used infantry in SB1, let them go first and get shot up and reveal the enemy and let vehicles shoot the dismounts, so useless they are right now.

/KT

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On 9/4/2022 at 3:57 PM, Kingtiger said:

Okay bumping this again.
You really need to adjust that infantry AI spotting. Right now its close to unplayable with infantry vs infantry, as soon as you get in contact you die as they spot you so much faster then you can spot them. 

I have played SB since 2002 era and right now you are basicly back to how we used infantry in SB1, let them go first and get shot up and reveal the enemy and let vehicles shoot the dismounts, so useless they are right now.

/KT

 

You don't have to "bump" the topic, and the problem here is that its entirely subjective. Some like it, some don't. This probably means that something in between needs to happen.

 

But the problem here is you have to think about when YOU as a player can spot and ID enemy troops. Often before, you could clearly see the enemy troops and your AI troops could not see them. Now that is no longer the case. Can they see troops above what you can see now, yes it seems to be the case, but vehicles do this too. Either way, its a bit tricky and we can't just take a hammer to it.

 

But we are keeping an eye on it.

 

 

On 9/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, Niner Two Two said:

One good  thing  I  saw is the suppression effect on  Infantry in trenches  ..  if  direct  fire is  accurate the  infantry  bob down and  do  not  return  fire.......

 

Yes, they are getting "suppressed".  This will improve a bit in the future though - right now if one soldier is shot at then the entire team is suppressed, but in the next patch we will hopefully get it working where they get suppressed individually, per soldier. 

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1 hour ago, Apocalypse 31 said:

I actually like this. Realistic if a team takes fire they will all react.

 

Not necessarily. It's that the problem is that it can currently be "gamed", and the discovery of that is what brought about the improvement.

 

Specifically, if you want to pin down the entire team - just fire a few rounds very roughly in the area of one of the soldiers on the very end of the trench. This isn't realistic, because it requires minimal effort to suppress the fortified team, and the user is able to become very effective and just keeping the team under perpetual suppression to the point that the trench can become a liability. This behavior doesn't reward effective suppression fire/coverage of the trench. Also, several other issues with that behavior -- it puts the entire team into a sort of synchronized suppression. By making this improvement, it allows the infantry to become even more of a problem while in trenches, especially when firing RPGs at vehicles (because you have to suppress the actual RPG gunner, not just "some guy" in the in the team), which is vital when a tank is bearing down on the occupant, but is shooting a few coaxial MG rounds at time to keep the entire team suppressed. 

 

Now that said, you can still suppress multiple troops at a time in the team by shooting near them, or suppress the entire team by firing across the center of the team -- its not like you will have to fire a bullet inches from an individual soldier's head before that solder gets suppressed. They still have a "bubble" So odds are, normal fire will suppress more than one soldier in the team, its just that it will avoid most of the gamey behavior.  So really, it will behave similar to how it is now, just that it will allow some of the soldiers in the team to still return fire if you aren't putting an effective suppression fire onto them. 

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9 minutes ago, Volcano said:

Now that said, you can still suppress multiple troops at a time in the team by shooting near them, or suppress the entire team by firing across the center of the team -- its not like you will have to fire a bullet inches from an individual soldier's head before that solder gets suppressed. They still have a "bubble" So odds are, normal fire will suppress more than one soldier in the team, its just that it will avoid most of the gamey behavior.

I dig it. 

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