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[Leopard 2] "Rücksteuerung" not working?


FLIR
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Hello!

Multiple (secondary) sources note that the "Rücksteuerung" of the Leopard 2 (based on sensor data like speed of the hull, orientation of the turret, measured distance) enables something like "stationary target tracking": The gunner's line of sight stays automatically on the stationary target after lasing - independently of the Leopard 2's own motion.

One example for the "Rücksteuerung" ("red" is achieved by the "Rücksteuerung" and not by manual gunner compensation):

mbt-70-stabilisator-1-1.jpg

 

Here is a text going into more detail:

image.thumb.jpeg.c0e46d9214c5d0cfc4fbebd86b615390.jpeg

 

But in-game it is not working for the Leopard 2. The "Rücksteuerung" is enabled and correctly compensating for "Verschleppung" and is also adjusting lased range for a limited amount of time/movement-distance, but it does not "hold" the line of sight on the stationary target.

Here is a video demonstration; it does not work at all. The lase - starting the "Rücksteuerung" - happens when the LOS is on the stationary target, but the LOS does not "stay" on the stationary target:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wC2eKmVYglRjB-uI8aT_4mYisl72h2Fo/view?usp=sharing


Thanks for explanations!

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Not sure what scenario you're playing but I do know that it works most of the time. It actually works quite well usually.

Keep in mind that it requiers a distance input. Depending on your distance it might be not as noticable.

However I had problems with the "Verschleppung". I have a scenario on a flat map with some targets on which I regurarely notice my HEAT rounds fly way past the (stationary) target when the own tank is in motion. I was thinking about doing a video about it.

 

(Also I noticed that my round land short reguraly even at short ranges with working FCS but I haven't had the time to make a video yet to kick of the discussion)

Edited by Higgs
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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

Not sure what scenario you're playing but I do know that it works most of the time. It actually works quite well usually.

Keep in mind that it requiers a distance input. Depending on your distance it might be not as noticable.

However I had problems with the "Verschleppung". I have a scenario on a flat map with some targets on which I regurarely notice my HEAT rounds fly way past the (stationary) target when the own tank is in motion. I was thinking about doing a video about it.

 

(Also I noticed that my round land short reguraly even at short ranges with working FCS but I haven't had the time to make a video yet to kick of the discussion)

That one took some time, but it was fixed

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2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

Was it? Do you mean it is supposed to be fixed in the current version or for a future patch? Because I do have this issue in the most recent version.

Tested some shots with DM-11 at 2500 to 3000m...it "seems" to work as intended

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26 minutes ago, Grenny said:

Tested some shots with DM-11 at 2500 to 3000m...it "seems" to work as intended

I just tested it on the Leopard 2A6MA2 with the DM-11 and the DM-12A1.

With both rounds I cannot seem to hit a target beyond 1500 m when moving past it. It works fairly well when my gun is facing at around 11-1 o'clock, but beyond that my shots start to get way inaccurate very quickly. I highly doubt that it's due to the limitations in the FCS.

Not sure why this is the case.

 

And as I mentioned before I occasionally get a Sabot round that hits the dirt way too early. Even when the range input is correct. Not sure why. (Even at short ranges below 1000 metes. At such a range a Sabot would hit even if the range is off by a couple of hundred meters. Despite that the round sometimes just drops down into the ground.)

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3 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Now registered as bug #11298.

 

Thank you very much! Is there a way for players to view the bug tracker (just would like to see how the bug description looks like, if allowed for the eyes of players).

 

22 hours ago, Higgs said:

Not sure what scenario you're playing but I do know that it works most of the time. It actually works quite well usually.


It does not work in any scenario in my case. I actually did not see "automatic stationary target tracking" of the "Rücksteuerung" engage a single time after a lase.

 

After the lase, the LOS of the GPS should stay on the stationary target independently of the movement if the "Rücksteuerung" is active (do not know for how long, but the "Rücksteuerung" can adjust measured range for a little bit over 150m of tank movement after the lase, IIRC)? At the moment the stabilization is holding the orientation of the GPS parallel to itself, but nothing more - no automatic tracking at all in my case.

 
If the "stationary target tracking" of the "Rücksteuerung" works for you: can you maybe record a video demonstrating it? After the lase, no manual input on the orientation of the GPS is allowed, the "automatic stationary target tracking" of the "Rücksteuerung" should hold the GPS on the target.

Or does it work differently on the real Leopard 2, I only have the info "from paper"? Would be helpful to clarify if this kind of "automatic tracking" is there or not...

And if it is there, how does it work in detail? For example: When engaging a stationary target while moving crosswise, then - after the lase - the gunner can put the control handle back into neutral position (if no fine adjustment of the aimpoint is needed), since the GPS stays on the target automatically (for some time)? 

Edited by FLIR
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53 minutes ago, FLIR said:

 

 

Thank you very much! Is there a way for players to view the bug tracker (just would like to see how the bug description looks like, if allowed for the eyes of players).

 


It does not work in any scenario in my case. I actually did not see "automatic stationary target tracking" of the "Rücksteuerung" engage a single time after a lase.

 

After the lase, the LOS of the GPS should stay on the stationary target independently of the movement if the "Rücksteuerung" is active (do not know for how long, but the "Rücksteuerung" can adjust measured range for a little bit over 150m of tank movement after the lase, IIRC)? At the moment the stabilization is holding the orientation of the GPS parallel to itself, but nothing more - no automatic tracking at all in my case.

 
If the "stationary target tracking" of the "Rücksteuerung" works for you: can you maybe record a video demonstrating it? After the lase, no manual input on the orientation of the GPS is allowed, the "automatic stationary target tracking" of the "Rücksteuerung" should hold the GPS on the target.

Or does it work differently on the real Leopard 2, I only have the info "from paper"? Would be helpful to clarify if this kind of "automatic tracking" is there or not...

And if it is there, how does it work in detail? For example: When engaging a stationary target while moving crosswise, then - after the lase - the gunner can put the control handle back into neutral position (if no fine adjustment of the aimpoint is needed), since the GPS stays on the target automatically (for some time)? 

 

Tried to make this. I hope you can see how it's supposed to work. But the video is a five minute project and just a little shitty.

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22 hours ago, Grenny said:

Tested some shots with DM-11 at 2500 to 3000m...it "seems" to work as intended


Here is what I'm talking about. Does the FCS just not compensate to this degree? Do you happen to know that? From my experience and knowledge about this tank, these rounds should hit.

 

The M1A1 and the M60A3 achieve massively better results in the same situation using their respective HEAT rounds.

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

Tried to make this. I hope you can see how it's supposed to work. But the video is a five minute project and just a little shitty.


Thank you! Yes, the "snapping" of the GPS after the lase is visible in your case. Strange that it is not working in my case.

p.s. Can you maybe share the scenario? Then I can look how it "performs" in my case. Thank you!

Edited by FLIR
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1 hour ago, FLIR said:


Thank you! Yes, the "snapping" of the GPS after the lase is visible in your case. Strange that it is not working in my case.

p.s. Can you maybe share the scenario? Then I can look how it "performs" in my case. Thank you!

I would but I didn't create it so I would want to ask first. But it's basically just a flat map with some T-72's and BMP-2's as enemies.

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I come to the conclusion that SB somehow does not like my PC... 🤔

Is there any possible explanation why particularly the Leo 2 "stationary target tracking" after a lase is not working at all on my PC? I mean: When the Leo 2 is on "Stab Ein" in SB then the "Rücksteuerung" is also enabled in-game. And the compensation for "Verschleppung" works in my case (so this proofs that the virtual "Rücksteuerung" is enabled), just the GPS does not snap onto stationary targets after a lase at all. The tracking - as noted in the book excerpt above - "can reduce aiming and tracking errors by a factor of 2". So not having it is a huge downside...

I re-installed, disconnected the joystick, reverted all controls to "default" - nothing helped. 

 

4 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

I hope you can see how it's supposed to work. 

Does it work at close ranges too? Lets say 500-800m distance to the stationary target? The compensation movement needs to be much bigger there, so should be even more noticeable when there is a "lock-on" target tracking after a lase.

There seems not much detail available on the details and limitations of the "Rücksteuerung".

Edited by FLIR
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10 minutes ago, FLIR said:

I come to the conclusion that SB somehow does not like my PC... 🤔

Is there any possible explanation why particularly the Leo 2 "stationary target tracking" after a lase is not working at all on my PC? I mean: When the Leo 2 is on "Stab Ein" in SB then the "Rücksteuerung" is also enabled in-game. And the compensation for "Verschleppung" works in my case (so this proofs that the virtual "Rücksteuerung" is enabled), just the GPS does not snap onto stationary targets after a lase at all. The tracking - as noted in the book excerpt above - "can reduce aiming and tracking errors by a factor of 2". So not having it is a huge downside...

I re-installed, disconnected the joystick, reverted all controls to "default" - nothing helped. 

 

Does it work at close ranges too? Lets say 500-800m distance to the stationary target? The compensation movement needs to be much bigger there, so should be even more noticeable when there is a "lock-on" target tracking after a lase.

There seems not much detail available on the details and limitations of the "Rücksteuerung".

Works for me even at ranges down to and below 500 meters.

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Many thanks to everyone helping to solve this issue!

 

14 hours ago, Higgs said:

Works for me even at ranges down to and below 500 meters.


Thanks a lot! Can we maybe do a direct comparison (it just takes 5 min.)? I made a test scenario. The Leo 2 drives automatically, the turret orientation should be to the left, around 9 o'clock: stationary targets then appear at different distances one by one.

 

Here is how it is in my case (only basic stabilization keeps the GPS of the Leo 2 parallel to itself, but there is no "stationary target tracking" of the GPS after the lase):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_t5PqzzjNGf6P9oEZA2yILoJ46TS2Kuj/view?usp=sharing

Would be very helpful to see how it looks in your case! Here is the scenario:

 

Leo2_Ruecksteuerung.sce


Thank you!

 

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1 hour ago, FLIR said:

Many thanks to everyone helping to solve this issue!

 


Thanks a lot! Can we maybe do a direct comparison (it just takes 5 min.)? I made a test scenario. The Leo 2 drives automatically, the turret orientation should be to the left, around 9 o'clock: stationary targets then appear at different distances one by one.

 

Here is how it is in my case (only basic stabilization keeps the GPS of the Leo 2 parallel to itself, but there is no "stationary target tracking" of the GPS after the lase):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_t5PqzzjNGf6P9oEZA2yILoJ46TS2Kuj/view?usp=sharing

Would be very helpful to see how it looks in your case! Here is the scenario:

 

Leo2_Ruecksteuerung.sce 70.6 kB · 1 download


Thank you!

 

Works perfectly fine for me in this scenario. Do you want a video to see it?

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

Works perfectly fine for me in this scenario. Do you want a video to see it?


Thank you - if it would not annoy you to record and share a video, then it would be a great help for me to see how it should work! To have a direct comparison for this "test scenario".

 

I imagine it to be a huge helper for aiming and tracking. If I understand it right, then the GPS-Rücksteuerung has the effect of automatically "holding" the GPS oriented towards a point in the landscape (target location) after a lase. 


A general question on how it works IRL and in the SB-model of the Leo 2 FCS (since it is a very interesting function):

 

Is the GPS "stationary target tracking" also active when "dynamic lead" is activated? This would mean that - if the target itself is moving - one has to compensate the GPS line-of-sight only for the movement of the target and not for the movement of the own Leo 2. In my case (non-working GPS-Rücksteuerung): When I track a moving target from the moving Leo 2, then I have to compensate for target movement + the Leo 2 movement manually... 

Edited by FLIR
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1 hour ago, FLIR said:


Thank you - if it would not annoy you to record and share a video, then it would be a great help for me to see how it should work! To have a direct comparison for this "test scenario".

 

I imagine it to be a huge helper for aiming and tracking. If I understand it right, then the GPS-Rücksteuerung has the effect of automatically "holding" the GPS oriented towards a point in the landscape (target location) after a lase. 


A general question on how it works IRL and in the SB-model of the Leo 2 FCS (since it is a very interesting function):

 

Is the GPS "stationary target tracking" also active when "dynamic lead" is activated? This would mean that - if the target itself is moving - one has to compensate the GPS line-of-sight only for the movement of the target and not for the movement of the own Leo 2. In my case (non-working GPS-Rücksteuerung): When I track a moving target from the moving Leo 2, then I have to compensate for target movement + the Leo 2 movement manually... 

 

Here you go. One can see very well with the second target.

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57 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Here you go. One can see very well with the second target.


Thank you very much, yes, there is "a world" between how the GPS of the Leo 2 ("Stab Ein") behaves for you and how it behaves in my case:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_t5PqzzjNGf6P9oEZA2yILoJ46TS2Kuj/view?usp=sharing

Since it is the exact same scenario, there must be some kind of "problem" somewhere...

Edited by FLIR
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1 hour ago, FLIR said:


Thank you very much, yes, there is "a world" between how the GPS of the Leo 2 ("Stab Ein") behaves for you and how it behaves in my case:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_t5PqzzjNGf6P9oEZA2yILoJ46TS2Kuj/view?usp=sharing

Since it is the exact same scenario, there must be some kind of "problem" somewhere...

Yeah that's definitely not as intended. But hey at least the targets look nice when they fly past you.

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It should be noted that Backsteering is limited to +/-170m of travel on the ground (in the worst case, that's 10 seconds of travel at 60km/h ... but it's NOT a hard ten second-cap; you could infinitely often drive forward some 160m, then reverse for 330m, and drive forward 330m again). So maybe you observed the "failure" after too much travel distance (e.g. you lased a target, had the engagement, then drove around some 200m, and another target appeared in the same spot, but this time the crosshairs keep wandering off in your direction of travel?)

 

Also, of course, the flip switch for Rücksteuerung must be "on" on the ballistic computer control panel.

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On 10/7/2022 at 10:42 PM, Ssnake said:

It should be noted that Backsteering is limited to +/-170m of travel on the ground (in the worst case, that's 10 seconds of travel at 60km/h ... but it's NOT a hard ten second-cap; you could infinitely often drive forward some 160m, then reverse for 330m, and drive forward 330m again).

 

Thank you for the detailed information!

 

On 10/7/2022 at 10:42 PM, Ssnake said:

So maybe you observed the "failure" after too much travel distance (e.g. you lased a target, had the engagement, then drove around some 200m, and another target appeared in the same spot, but this time the crosshairs keep wandering off in your direction of travel?)

 

Also, of course, the flip switch for Rücksteuerung must be "on" on the ballistic computer control panel.

 

I think, I did not observe a "failure", because it did not work a single time in over 100 missions (no matter what particular situation). Here is a 40 sec. demonstration showing that it does not work:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qn04xTsP0pgzQJ54dRLErAQjBFKJRV4J/view?usp=sharing

Regarding the "flip switch for Rücksteuerung must be on":

It is not an "interactive" switch and always "on". I recently bought the "SB Pro PE 4.1 Classic License", so I did not buy the new 4.3 license yet. But I will buy 4.3 now, maybe it works then. I tried the versions accessible through a 4.1 license, in none of them the "Rücksteuerung" worked (did not see any mentions regarding this in the 4.3xx release notes, therefore I thought it should be the same in non-4.3xx versions and did not note the version explicitly.) 

Wanted to upgrade anyway! 

Fingers crossed that it also solves the strange "Rücksteuerung" issue...

 

Edited by FLIR
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2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I haven't seen you lase in that video.

The question is, do the crosshairs stay on target after you lased a target?


I lased in all above demonstration videos, because the lase should normally start the "Rücksteuerung" of the GPS LOS. In the mentioned video I lased at 0:32, you can even see "Entfernungsmessung, EMES: Letztechoverwertung" at the lower left. Screenshot provided too:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qn04xTsP0pgzQJ54dRLErAQjBFKJRV4J/view?usp=sharing

In this video, I also lased every time the "Lasermesskreis" was fully covered by the targets:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_t5PqzzjNGf6P9oEZA2yILoJ46TS2Kuj/view?usp=sharing

 

I played 100+ missions as said and a component of the "Rücksteuerung" works (as mentioned): the FCS automatically compensates for the "Verschleppung". What does not work at all - never worked a single time, despite having installed several SB versions which are compatible with the 4.1 license - is that the GPS LOS "tracks" the stationary target after a lase. I just get plain stabilization which just keeps the GPS parallel to itself, without any tracking.


But as said, I will upgrade to 4.3 and erase everything related to the SB installation (currently 4.268) from the PC (once again). Maybe this strange issue goes away with 4.3...

image.jpeg

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