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The M1A1 was destroyed by a near miss.


F.T
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6 hours ago, Ssnake said:

It's a 152mm artillery shell with more than 8kg of high explosive filler, exploding maybe 2m away from the tank. I see nothing wrong with the result...?

I think the tank just can't continue the mission. It can still be repaired.

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7 hours ago, F.T said:

I think the tank just can't continue the mission. It can still be repaired.

Quite possible, but the question still is if it's a one-hour field repair thing or requires a bit more effort. Don't read too much into Steel Beasts battle damage. We have to draw a cut-off line somewhere, separating cases that can still be fixed by crew and repair vehicles, and cases that shouldn't be repairable over the course of a typical Steel Beasts scenario.

Depot level repair, or even division level field repair facilities are beyond ther boundaries of what Steel Beasts simulates.

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13 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

Crew might be a bit 2nd hand though

For the overpressure directly generated by the explosion. This is almost impossible if the tank is tightly sealed.

As for induced overpressure, many people overestimate its power. It has been touted in popular Internet culture.

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4 hours ago, F.T said:

For the overpressure directly generated by the explosion. This is almost impossible if the tank is tightly sealed.

As for induced overpressure, many people overestimate its power. It has been touted in popular Internet culture.

Just want to point out you are arguing with people that operate tanks for a living, right?  Maybe stop using Combat Mission or WoT as a reference and be a little more open to other people's experiences.

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41 minutes ago, thewood said:

Just want to point out you are arguing with people that operate tanks for a living, right?  Maybe stop using Combat Mission or WoT as a reference and be a little more open to other people's experiences.

The British had tested the damage done to tanks by malkara missile(It has a huge HESH warhead). The report has been declassified. I think the experience of the tank crew sometimes doesn't say much.

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3 minutes ago, F.T said:

The British had tested the damage done to tanks by malkara missile(It has a huge HESH warhead). The report has been declassified. I think the experience of the tank crew sometimes doesn't say much.

I agree with you that crew experience isn't always very accurate. However, a HESH hit and a HE hit next to the target are two different things.

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16 minutes ago, Higgs said:

I agree with you that crew experience isn't always very accurate. However, a HESH hit and a HE hit next to the target are two different things.

HESH will produce more powerful induced overpressure. It delivers energy into the tank more efficiently. In essence, though, it's still a HE shell.

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7 minutes ago, F.T said:

HESH will produce more powerful induced overpressure. It delivers energy into the tank more efficiently. In essence, though, it's still a HE shell.

Depends on the armour. As far as I'm aware, against a modern target, a HESH round won't be very effective due to the multi layer armour.
But that's not my point.

 

These are two different things. They work differently and will have a different effect.
 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Higgs said:

Depends on the armour. As far as I'm aware, against a modern target, a HESH round won't be very effective due to the multi layer armour.
But that's not my point.

 

These are two different things. They work differently and will have a different effect.
 

The mechanism of induced overpressure is the same. The energy of the explosion causes the armor plate to deform and move, which transfers energy to the air inside the tank.

If HESH is not so effective. Then the HE will only be less effective.

Edited by F.T
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If I remember correctly HESH works by squashing against the outer armour and exploding, causing the inner surface of the armour to shatter and a send splinters through the turret or hull, damaging equipment and killing personnel (the armour is not actually penetrated). And it does not work from smooth bore guns, it needs the warhead to spin.

 

It's effectively obsolete.

 

If I'm reading the pics correctly, the explosive shell struck the ground beside the tank throwing chunks of unspecified material at the tank at high velocity.

Edited by ssidiver
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20 minutes ago, ssidiver said:

If I remember correctly HESH works by squashing against the outer armour and exploding, causing the inner surface of the armour to shatter and a send splinters through the turret or hull, damaging equipment and killing personnel (the armour is not actually penetrated). And it does not work from smooth bore guns, it needs the warhead to spin.

 

It's effectively obsolete.

 

If I'm reading the pics correctly, the explosive shell struck the ground beside the tank throwing chunks of unspecified material at the tank at high velocity.

The same can be done with HE shell. It's just that the shock wave from the HE shell is largely reflected off the armor. It needs more explosives to replenish the reflected energy.

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Hi

 

The Danish army artillery school tested 155mm shells with crash test dummies inside Tanks with pressure gages (mainly surplus centurion) where they place artillery rounds in different ranges and if the rounds exploded up close as almost a direct hit or as a direct hit there would be severe consequence's for the crew (Up to and including being killed) just like if they where hit by an IED, if hit at around a meter distance , radio antenna, sights, MGs side skirts , Tracks , Roadwheels, Gun tube, would be damaged beyond repair by the Unit themselves.
In both cases they would be out of action. The crew would be unable to fight effectively, just ask those in our communitive that have survived an IED.

 

MD  

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1 hour ago, Major duck said:

Hi

 

The Danish army artillery school tested 155mm shells with crash test dummies inside Tanks with pressure gages (mainly surplus centurion) where they place artillery rounds in different ranges and if the rounds exploded up close as almost a direct hit or as a direct hit there would be severe consequence's for the crew (Up to and including being killed) just like if they where hit by an IED, if hit at around a meter distance , radio antenna, sights, MGs side skirts , Tracks , Roadwheels, Gun tube, would be damaged beyond repair by the Unit themselves.
In both cases they would be out of action. The crew would be unable to fight effectively, just ask those in our communitive that have survived an IED.

 

MD  

If possible, can you give a link to the test report

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2 hours ago, Major duck said:

Hi

 

The Danish army artillery school tested 155mm shells with crash test dummies inside Tanks with pressure gages (mainly surplus centurion) where they place artillery rounds in different ranges and if the rounds exploded up close as almost a direct hit or as a direct hit there would be severe consequence's for the crew (Up to and including being killed) just like if they where hit by an IED, if hit at around a meter distance , radio antenna, sights, MGs side skirts , Tracks , Roadwheels, Gun tube, would be damaged beyond repair by the Unit themselves.
In both cases they would be out of action. The crew would be unable to fight effectively, just ask those in our communitive that have survived an IED.

 

MD  

Yeah like my Tank in Iraq hit by 3 buried 155 rounds. All Crewmembers survived this hit btw. As stated above I think the overpressure is an overkill. Its not as bad as many make it out to be. I agree with Ssnake comment "Don't read too much into Steel Beasts battle damage."

 

IED in Iraq.jpg

Edited by Assassin 7
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4 hours ago, F.T said:

The same can be done with HE shell. It's just that the shock wave from the HE shell is largely reflected off the armor. It needs more explosives to replenish the reflected energy.

Oh dear, HESH is High Explosive Squash Head! But HE does not squash against the armour and can be fired from a smooth bore.

I don't know where you get the idea of ''reflected energy''; reflected off what? Dissipated or absorbed by the armour would be more to the point.

 

I think you need to stop listening to ''people on the internet'', and do some research into the basics, read a book or two; anything by Ian Hogg, for example,  would be good. Then apply some logic.

 

Also think about this; you got an answer from Ssnake and he makes a living from selling this software to national armies. Surely the model he uses would be valid enough for their training.

 

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7 hours ago, ssidiver said:

Oh dear, HESH is High Explosive Squash Head! But HE does not squash against the armour and can be fired from a smooth bore.

I don't know where you get the idea of ''reflected energy''; reflected off what? Dissipated or absorbed by the armour would be more to the point.

 

I think you need to stop listening to ''people on the internet'', and do some research into the basics, read a book or two; anything by Ian Hogg, for example,  would be good. Then apply some logic.

 

Also think about this; you got an answer from Ssnake and he makes a living from selling this software to national armies. Surely the model he uses would be valid enough for their training.

 

What I'm trying to say is that the physics of the shockwave won't make a fundamental difference, whether it's produced by HESH or HE.

The impedance of air is very small. In contrast, explosives have a higher impedance. The shock wave from the explosive to the armor will have more energy allocated to the armor. The shock wave from the air to the armor allocates much less energy to the armor. This is why HESH shells should stick to the surface of the armor as much as possible before exploding.

What I disagree with is that induced overpressure has a high lethal rate. Note: The induced overpressure is generated by the transmitted shock wave.

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@F.T I'd give this a read: 

 

 

In short, a tank being destroyed by a near-miss from a 152mm HE shell isn't outside the realm of possibility. Especially when said unit is hit with 152 fragments. 

 

image.thumb.png.d821c5fe8970f18455aa44617979bc80.png

 

Shown here are the results of a test with a Bradley. Both the main gun and the TOW launcher are definitely inoperable. I'd imagine the track is pretty torn up as well.

 

image.png.210cdaf74cae36dce2260d230ade8c6c.png

 

Such as with this T-72, which was hit by fragmentation from a near-miss of a 155mm HE round impacting 30 meters away. 

 

 

Edited by Mirzayev
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6 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

@F.T I'd give this a read: 

 

 

In short, a tank being destroyed by a near-miss from a 152mm HE shell isn't outside the realm of possibility. Especially when said unit is hit with 152 fragments. 

 

image.thumb.png.d821c5fe8970f18455aa44617979bc80.png

 

Shown here are the results of a test with a Bradley. Both the main gun and the TOW launcher are definitely inoperable. I'd imagine the track is pretty torn up as well.

 

image.png.210cdaf74cae36dce2260d230ade8c6c.png

 

Such as with this T-55, which was hit by fragmentation from a near-miss of a 155mm HE round impacting 30 meters away. 

 

 

I want to make it clear again. I'm talking about induced overpressure.

x.png

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21 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

Go and read that article. 

This article talks about the effectiveness of artillery against armoured targets. Including but not limited to fragments increases the kill range. But it's still not directly related to what I'm talking about.

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