Newbie Question on Palm switch

[General Tobruk]

Hi all, I did a forum search for this but only found instances of reported bugs.

 

In the game I noted that I did not have a key listed under controls for the Palm switch, though it was listed under joystick button 5 as default.

 

My question is, what is the function of the palm switch and do I need to have it mapped? I understand that it relates to control on turret movement but for who, the gunner or the TC?

[Higgs]

In most tanks the turret traverse only works when the gunner actively presses the palm switch. When pressed, the turret can be moved. If he lets go of it, he can no longer do anything.

Now because most people don't have a set up with a palm switch and because pressing one button continously is very annoying, Steel Beasts reverses this function. So you DO NOT need to press anything to have control of the turret, but to let go of it, you need to press a button.

 

This is needed for a couple of reasons. For example on some tanks the commander can override the gunner by pressing his palm switch. If the commander lets go of it, the gunner gets back control. Now because in Steel Beasts the palm switch is the other way round, to let go the player needs to press the P-key once.
 

On vehicles such as the M1 letting go of the palm switch will "dump lead".

 

So to answer your question, yes you need it mapped. It "activates" turret control for the gunner and "activates" turret control for the TC. They both have their own palm switch.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Higgs

[TSe419E]

I thought this was the “P” key?

[Higgs]

1 hour ago, TSe419E said:

I thought this was the “P” key?

It is on the keyboard. I guess the standard key on a joystick is joybutton 5.

But generally yes, P is correct.

[General Tobruk]

Hi, I was not listed as the "P" in my default settings.  I thought the "P" key was for the gunner to compute lead.

 

This is for the Leopard 2 BTW, now default palm switch.  Dynamic lead is mapped as P.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by General Tobruk

[Ssnake]

On different tanks, the function is different, though we try to keep it topically consistent.

Like in the M1, where lead calculation must be explicitly disabled, P/joy5/middle mouse button does just that. On the Leopard 2, where lead must be explicitly enabled, the same buttons are reserved for dynamic lead.

[General Tobruk]

So for the Leopard, if I am in the gunner's position and I lase/p I automatically take control of turret movement and invoke dynamic lead at the same time. 

 

LOL I'm trying to figure this out to ensure my key mashing is not the reason I am a sloppy shot.  For me dynamic lead only appears to work haphazardly. I just want to make sure I'm not sending conflicting key commands.

 

Given that it was not showing mapped, I mapped it to my Alt key.  I guess I should delete that.

[Maic]

15 minutes ago, General Tobruk said:

So for the Leopard, if I am in the gunner's position and I lase/p I automatically take control of turret movement and invoke dynamic lead at the same time. 

 

LOL I'm trying to figure this out to ensure my key mashing is not the reason I am a sloppy shot.  For me dynamic lead only appears to work haphazardly. I just want to make sure I'm not sending conflicting key commands.

 

Given that it was not showing mapped, I mapped it to my Alt key.  I guess I should delete that.

Yes. In order to activate the dynamic lead in Leo 2 you push down and hold the P button.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Maic

[Higgs]

20 minutes ago, General Tobruk said:

So for the Leopard, if I am in the gunner's position and I lase/p I automatically take control of turret movement and invoke dynamic lead at the same time. 

 

LOL I'm trying to figure this out to ensure my key mashing is not the reason I am a sloppy shot.  For me dynamic lead only appears to work haphazardly. I just want to make sure I'm not sending conflicting key commands.

 

Given that it was not showing mapped, I mapped it to my Alt key.  I guess I should delete that.

On the Leopard (assuming you use standard key bindings) you lase, track the target while holding the P-key and then fire.

 

I could have explained that a bit better. On most other tanks the P-key is used for the palm switch. As an example on the M1 Abrams, you will need to track the target and after about a second of steadily tracking you lase it. Lead is input automatically, so you don't need to press anything to do that. However after a shot, you want to dump lead, this is done by letting go of the palm switch.

But since Steel Beasts is reveres the palm switch, instead of letting go you need to click the palm switch button, which should be P.

 

In all tanks you take control of the turret by just moving your mouse. On the Leopard you need to press P when engaging a moving target to activate lead.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Higgs

[General Tobruk]

Ok I understand, now.  I just watched the gunner video for the M-60 and it explained the dynamic lead and need for dumping. Thanks.

[Ssnake]

I use the mittle mouse button for dynamic lead; it's also a bit awkward, but slightly less so than the P key. The important point to remember is that dynamic lead relies on you tracking the target smoothly. If you track it too slow and the target is wandering off the crosshairs, a frequent mistake is to make a quick reaction and to fire immediately. This tells the fire control computer that the target suddenly accelerated, so it will apply a mich bigger lead, and you'll miss the target in front of its travel direction (or behind it, if you initially tracked too fast).

 

Also important to remember is that in the Leopard 2, dynamic lead is to be used only if the target itself is moving. Apparent movement due to your own tank driving with the resulting parallax shift doesn't count.

In the Leopard 1A5 however, dynamic lead is to be pressed if either you are moving, or the target, or both, as the Leo 1A5 doesn't have the hull velocity sensor that is needed for the backsteering.

[Higgs]

24 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I use the mittle mouse button for dynamic lead; it's also a bit awkward, but slightly less so than the P key. The important point to remember is that dynamic lead relies on you tracking the target smoothly. If you track it too slow and the target is wandering off the crosshairs, a frequent mistake is to make a quick reaction and to fire immediately. This tells the fire control computer that the target suddenly accelerated, so it will apply a mich bigger lead, and you'll miss the target in front of its travel direction (or behind it, if you initially tracked too fast).

 

Although the newer versions of the FCS is supposed to prevent this isn't it? We were taught that sudden (big) changes in tracking speed would block the shot for a short time for exactly that reason.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Higgs

[Ssnake]

I haven't heard of that; granted, armies aren't always best to validate our fire control system simulation, so I wouldn't fully rule out that on some Leopard 2 tanks such a change has been made. During my active years it was a topic in gunnery training, so our model reflects that, and so far none of our army customers have complained about this particular issue.

[Higgs]

5 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I haven't heard of that; granted, armies aren't always best to validate our fire control system simulation, so I wouldn't fully rule out that on some Leopard 2 tanks such a change has been made. During my active years it was a topic in gunnery training, so our model reflects that, and so far none of our army customers have complained about this particular issue.

Ahh I see. It's been a while maybe I missremembered then or our army has added little bits with the vehicles upgrade a while back. Thanks for the response.

[Ssnake]

Let's think of my example in the form of a long string of samples of the turret turn rate as the gunner first tracks the target too slowly, then catches up, and goes back to a slightly higher but still similar turn rate afterwards. At any given point, in this example, only eight values are being used to calculate the (moving ) average; as new samples are added, the oldest get thrown out.

Over time the whole series would look like this:

0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.2, 0.1, 2.2,1.8,1.2, 0.4, 0.0, 0.2, 0.3, 0.2

 

Early on we have a dynamic lead input like .1, .1, .2, .1, .1, .2, .2, .1 (=.1375 averate angular velocity). Now the gunner over corrects by "catching up" and the new sample is .1, .1, .2, .2, .1, 2.2,1.8,1.2; the resulting average increases to .7375. Now the stabilization system needs a minimal amount of time to move the gun further ahead, and while it's doing so you would have no coincidence, therefore the gun wouldn't fire.

But of course now the lead angle is too big even if the subsequent samples of the angular turn rate go back to close to the old rate:

2.2,1.8,1.2, .4, 0, .2, .3, .2 still results in .7875 average (in fact, it increases even a little further). You now need to wait until the old samples are flushed from the moving average: .4, 0, .2, .3, .2, .3, .3, .2 =.2375 as the new "true" angular turn rate.

[Higgs]

16 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Let's think of my example in the form of a long string of samples of the turret turn rate as the gunner first tracks the target too slowly, then catches up, and goes back to a slightly higher but still similar turn rate afterwards. At any given point, in this example, only eight values are being used to calculate the (moving ) average; as new samples are added, the oldest get thrown out.

Over time the whole series would look like this:

0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.2, 0.1, 2.2,1.8,1.2, 0.4, 0.0, 0.2, 0.3, 0.2

 

Early on we have a dynamic lead input like .1, .1, .2, .1, .1, .2, .2, .1 (=.1375 averate angular velocity). Now the gunner over corrects by "catching up" and the new sample is .1, .1, .2, .2, .1, 2.2,1.8,1.2; the resulting average increases to .7375. Now the stabilization system needs a minimal amount of time to move the gun further ahead, and while it's doing so you would have no coincidence, therefore the gun wouldn't fire.

But of course now the lead angle is too big even if the subsequent samples of the angular turn rate go back to close to the old rate:

2.2,1.8,1.2, .4, 0, .2, .3, .2 still results in .7875 average (in fact, it increases even a little further). You now need to wait until the old samples are flushed from the moving average: .4, 0, .2, .3, .2, .3, .3, .2 =.2375 as the new "true" angular turn rate.

Well if that's what my instructors meant, they oversold it massively. I'm fairly certain they told us, the FCS would "block" the shot. They certainly made it sound as if it was intentional and not just the time needed for stabilization to work.

[Ssnake]

I wasn't there when they gave you instructions, so I cannot possibly comment on them.

I can only describe the basic principles by using an example like this to demonstrate the effect of a correction input into the moving average calculation of the lead angle. I'm somewhat skeptical that the Swiss Army may have ordered a different fire control system. But I cannot completely rule it out. I may have forgotten something about the fire control system - it's been 30 years now since I attended Master Gunner's course; maybe there was a misunderstanding with the instructors, or maybe you misunderstood what they were trying to say. Lots of potential sources, as you can see, for conflicting information without anyone having bad intentions.

[General Tobruk]

On 10/9/2022 at 3:36 AM, Ssnake said:

I use the mittle mouse button for dynamic lead; it's also a bit awkward, but slightly less so than the P key. The important point to remember is that dynamic lead relies on you tracking the target smoothly. If you track it too slow and the target is wandering off the crosshairs, a frequent mistake is to make a quick reaction and to fire immediately. This tells the fire control computer that the target suddenly accelerated, so it will apply a mich bigger lead, and you'll miss the target in front of its travel direction (or behind it, if you initially tracked too fast).

 

Also important to remember is that in the Leopard 2, dynamic lead is to be used only if the target itself is moving. Apparent movement due to your own tank driving with the resulting parallax shift doesn't count.

In the Leopard 1A5 however, dynamic lead is to be pressed if either you are moving, or the target, or both, as the Leo 1A5 doesn't have the hull velocity sensor that is needed for the backsteering.

Thanks Ssnake that helps clarify my difficulty. I was tracking target, then pressing P, and assuming that the computer would take over I and track itself.  But if I understand, I still have to continuing tracking even with P pressed.

[Maic]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:36 AM, Ssnake said:

I use the mittle mouse button for dynamic lead; it's also a bit awkward, but slightly less so than the P key. The important point to remember is that dynamic lead relies on you tracking the target smoothly. If you track it too slow and the target is wandering off the crosshairs, a frequent mistake is to make a quick reaction and to fire immediately. This tells the fire control computer that the target suddenly accelerated, so it will apply a mich bigger lead, and you'll miss the target in front of its travel direction (or behind it, if you initially tracked too fast).

 

Also important to remember is that in the Leopard 2, dynamic lead is to be used only if the target itself is moving. Apparent movement due to your own tank driving with the resulting parallax shift doesn't count.

In the Leopard 1A5 however, dynamic lead is to be pressed if either you are moving, or the target, or both, as the Leo 1A5 doesn't have the hull velocity sensor that is needed for the backsteering.

"Also important to remember is that in the Leopard 2, dynamic lead is to be used only if the target itself is moving. Apparent movement due to your own tank driving with the resulting parallax shift doesn't count. "
I remember hearing, and I haven't been able to find any references to this from any other source, but instructing officer told me that certain crews in other armies (and I think he was talking about Swedes) would use ductape to push down the dynamic lead button in their Leo 2, to have it active at all times. He said they can still hit static targets when its pushed down, just by keeping the reticle in the middle (thus not applying a lead for the FCS).
Now it could be that all he said is total bullshit just to make me confused or that he had missunderstood something. Or maybe Swedish gunners are just ex-surgeons with very very steady hand. Or maybe the FCS of Stridsvagn 122 differs in this regard...

Edited October 10, 2022 by Maic

[Ssnake]

Sure, if the angular velocity of the turret is zero, the dynamic lead will be zero too.

Still, it adds error as soon as small corrections are made, and be it just that they are non-zero values in the moving average of the lead calculation that take a while to be flushed from memory. Now, one might ask the question what the typical engagment ranges are. If the terrain is rather restrictive with average line of sight well under 1500m, one might argue that the amount of error added is small compared to the size of the target. Still, I think that all this could be easily avoided as long as gunners are being taught when, exactly, to press that button. It's not hard, or time-consuming. What costs more time is to train gunners to track targets with precision. This costs even more time when you tape the button over. In short, I see very little justification for this, if it is indeed a thing. Sometimes battalions develop "local traditions", and this may be one of them. I would need to hear a lot more arguments to change my mind about this. But maybe it's just a rumor.

[General Tobruk]

As far as taping the palm switch goes, I thought the procedure was sequential, meaning you had to laze first and then apply dynamic lead, no?

[Higgs]

1 hour ago, General Tobruk said:

As far as taping the palm switch goes, I thought the procedure was sequential, meaning you had to laze first and then apply dynamic lead, no?

That's what I was trained to do. I just recently learned Canadian Leopard 2 crew's are apparently trained to lase, hold dynamic lead, lase again and then fire.

Works both ways really.

[Ssnake]

Track, hold dynamic lead with one thumb, lase with the other (check plausibility of laser range), shoot. 

[General Tobruk]

Got it, BTW I tried using the middle mouse button but it threw my tracking off. Guess I need to learn to walk and chew gun at the same time.

[Ssnake]

I use the index finger (right hand) for the middle mouse button when tracking targets, and lase with the middle finger. Or, left hand for Ctrl in that easily identifiable lower left corner of the keyboard.