Grenny Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 We never guessed it, but seems like esim already added the combat ready version of the PUMA in SB!! Here is a screenshot with the vehicle as it is in real life: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 20, 2022 Members Share Posted December 20, 2022 Also, there are fifteen Ninjas in this image. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocalypse 31 Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 25 minutes ago, Grenny said: We never guessed it, but seems like esim already added the combat ready version of the PUMA in SB!! Here is a screenshot with the vehicle as it is in real life: Looks like a realistic engagement with the T14 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenny Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Apocalypse 31 said: Looks like a realistic engagement with the T14 Yeah, the combat ready T14 can be seen in the backround. Thats why I wonder....The T14 models we have in SB, should disappear when realism is set to "high". I should bug-report that Edited December 20, 2022 by Grenny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willykurtz Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Nice joke. For the 1st of April. Not for 21 of December. 🤨 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenny Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Willykurtz said: Nice joke. For the 1st of April. Not for 21 of December. 🤨 Sorry that you don't understand it... For reference: https://defbrief.com/2022/12/19/germany-halts-puma-ifv-purchases-after-live-fire-fiasco/ Edited December 20, 2022 by Grenny 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpow66m Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Marder for the win!🍻 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Grenny said: Sorry that you don't understand it... For reference: https://defbrief.com/2022/12/19/germany-halts-puma-ifv-purchases-after-live-fire-fiasco/ Yes not ideal given we are at the pointy end of Land 400-2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenny Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Gibsonm said: Yes not ideal given we are at the pointy end of Land 400-2. Well, you've been more clever: Long testing and evaluation time and a REAL competition.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) On 12/21/2022 at 7:06 PM, Grenny said: Well, you've been more clever: Long testing and evaluation time and a REAL competition.... But the same gun is on our BOXER reconnaissance vehicle. We'll see how it goes. Edited December 22, 2022 by Gibsonm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 21, 2022 Members Share Posted December 21, 2022 Well, the Puma troubles are "pretty obvious and un-ignorable" (unless you're the German MOD and ignore the trouble deliberately because you know that your own mismanagement caused at least half of the issues). You would notice them if your vehicles had the same problem. If they don't show grave & obvious troubles, it's likely that it's not so much the turret itself at fault, but that PS&M (Projekt System & Management GmbH, gotta love the crypto-bullshit lingo of the defense industry) fucked up the integration, somehow, and didn't get the situation under control in the last 10 years. Which has probably as much to do with the mismanagement from the German MOD and vacillating political guidance as it has with the loss of key competences among KMW and Rheinmetall due to 20 years without any new AFV in development; at some point the experienced engineers simply leave or retire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenny Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ssnake said: Well, the Puma troubles are "pretty obvious and un-ignorable" (unless you're the German MOD and ignore the trouble deliberately because you know that your own mismanagement caused at least half of the issues). You would notice them if your vehicles had the same problem. If they don't show grave & obvious troubles, it's likely that it's not so much the turret itself at fault, but that PS&M (Projekt System & Management GmbH, gotta love the crypto-bullshit lingo of the defense industry) fucked up the integration, somehow, and didn't get the situation under control in the last 10 years. Which has probably as much to do with the mismanagement from the German MOD and vacillating political guidance as it has with the loss of key competences among KMW and Rheinmetall due to 20 years without any new AFV in development; at some point the experienced engineers simply leave or retire. Hey,lets make two competitors who hate each other to the bone, one of them marketing a competing product....work together to make the new main IFV of the army. What could possibly go wrong? Edited December 21, 2022 by Grenny 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 21, 2022 Members Share Posted December 21, 2022 Now, now... they hate everybody with equal passion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormrider_sp Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) Pretty sad. I bought with great passion both Tankograd Puma volumes. Great "tank" on paper. 😢 Edited December 21, 2022 by stormrider_sp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpow66m Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) Calling Cary Elwes Edited December 21, 2022 by mpow66m Xx 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 21, 2022 Members Share Posted December 21, 2022 Yeah, I guess a similar, sadder, more boring German variation could be made of this. Maybe a talented screen writer can discover comedy gold in this. The problem with the German MOD is, it's happening everywhere. MRLS surplus rockets: They decommissioned the LARS in the early 1990s. They were too stingy to have the rockets disassembled, so they paid millions for an in-bore device to fire the 110mm rockets from the MLRS 227mm tubes. But they never actually fired the rockets - because, reasons. So they kept them in storage. Some time between mid 2000s and early 2010s someone wrote a report that they were past their storage limit, and that Bad Things(TM) would happen if they weren't being decommissioned pronto. And, to the surprise of exactly nobody, nothing happened. Last year they discovered that nitroglycerine is seeping from the old clunkers, sleeping in their storage racks in five ammo depots. So they can no longer be safely removed. Since nobody knows what to do now - well, we keep 'em there and wait for the day that they blow themselves up with the next earthquake or whatever. NH90: The interior couldn't withstand soldier boots with soldiers in them. WHich is pretty rich, given that it's supposed to be an army transport helicopter. The whole Uboat flotilla was out of service at some point, because they couldn't cannibalize spare parts for the last operative boat from the remaining ones like they did before, because someone thought that cannibalism was the future, or something. My opinion on all this ... would violate the terms of this forum. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpow66m Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 YIKES!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 39 minutes ago, Ssnake said: NH90: The interior couldn't withstand soldier boots with soldiers in them. WHich is pretty rich, given that it's supposed to be an army transport helicopter. Yes we tried loading the packs separate to the soldiers (i.e. you pass your pack to the flight crew and then you get on board - to reduce the load of a soldier and their pack as one item), but not workable. That plus the antennas protruding from the underside preventing landing on grass or other non paved surface, made the whole battlefield tactical lift a bit pointless. Hence the recent purchase of UH60 Black Hawks to replace them (ironic given the MRH90s replaced an earlier batch of Black Hawks). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 55 minutes ago, Ssnake said: My opinion on all this ... would violate the terms of this forum. 16 minutes ago, mpow66m said: YIKES!!! I Know, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Alfa Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) As I understand the T-14 from Russian writings it is undergoing state trials, with some in the SMO. Given the small number of trial T-14's we will find out if it goes the same route as outher protypes ADATS,Puma etc. There may be a production run afterall, or a production start and issues found. Testing the T-14 in the SMO (if true) is a hard core testing method, OR, the gold star in AFV testing , opinions may vary I belive the German IRIS-T has had a same fate, right from testing, and low production to the SMO? It's a crazy world we live in. Edited December 29, 2022 by 12Alfa 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 28, 2022 Members Share Posted December 28, 2022 Well, I don't think the Puma can be thrown in the same bin as the T-14, with several hundred vehicles already produced. As critical as I am of the project as a German taxpayer, it's more the question of "bang per buck" ratio rather than "the thing is completely useless" or "we only have four dozen of them after a decade of trials". Much of the trouble we have with the Puma can be traced directly to decisions made in the MOD (be they made recklessly, or in full awareness of possible consequences); a constant shifting of requirements, production lot sizes, delivery deadlines, ... Spike was supposed to be integrated from the start, but the MOD decided to have the vehicle "fitted for, but not with" the missile - and now that the missile is to be delivered, surprise, "integration issues". 20 years of mismanagement are coming home to roost. I'm sure that there's enough blame to go around for everybody, but one has to acknowledge that a considerable fraction goes back directly to political decisions at the top to save a penny early, even at several thousand percent interest rate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Alfa Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) Yes true, two different methods of getting a AFV/wpn platform into sevice. Long testing peroid, vs, short/ just good enough method due to other factors. I guess in time, decades from now we shall see what has worked out best for the end user, and tax payers with these two, but not limitded to systems. In the times we live in presently ($$$$) , I'm leaning after seeing my, and other nations staying with the norm , the short production for testing that lasts a decade or longer, with time to work out issues may work out best. I think that this issues was the same for WWII and other conflicts due to time restrants for large production runs. We are not in that constrant now , or are we? Edited December 28, 2022 by 12Alfa spelin :) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted December 28, 2022 Members Share Posted December 28, 2022 I don't think so, but sometimes you realize this only in hindsight. 😜 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIR Posted December 31, 2022 Share Posted December 31, 2022 On 12/28/2022 at 3:04 AM, Ssnake said: Much of the trouble we have with the Puma can be traced directly to decisions made in the MOD (be they made recklessly, or in full awareness of possible consequences); a constant shifting of requirements, production lot sizes, delivery deadlines, ... Worst MOD decision clearly was not to invest in a virtual SB model to test it there - PE players maybe could have found some of the issues earlier... The Puma is still my favorite IFV. Would love to get my "virtual" hands on the controls for the turret systems in SB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormrider_sp Posted December 31, 2022 Share Posted December 31, 2022 1 hour ago, FLIR said: Worst MOD decision clearly was not to invest in a virtual SB model to test it there - PE players maybe could have found some of the issues earlier... The Puma is still my favorite IFV. Would love to get my "virtual" hands on the controls for the turret systems in SB. I'm not sure that the issues are related to its tactical application but with system itself. In SB it would a day 1 killer for sure as it is on paper. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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