Grenny Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Just now, 12Alfa said: (we are onto you) Look in the mirror, will you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 18 hours ago, ole1291 said: Did most of those placed in long term storage receive an upgrade as well prior to retirement? So Poland will basically receive M1s with latest (or close) protection level but without the hunter killer capability, data link moving map etc... of the M1A2. I imagine no APS as well (any plans for the future?). M1A1's in long term storage are mostly empty shells, that either way will need refurbishment, overhaul and at least partial modernization before they can be fielded by any army out there that might buy them. Poland procured 116 M1A1FEP tanks with SCWS (Stabilized Commander Weapon Station) with AIDATS (Abrams Integrated Display And Targeting System) with slew-to-cue and RTS thermal sight with 3x, 6x and 9x magnification. So this works like CITV and gives commander hunter killer capability. These tanks also have BMS terminal and will use Sitaware BMS which was choosen for Polish Army M1 tanks. Poland also procured 250 new build M1A2SEPv3 tanks. In future it is planned to upgrade these 116 M1A1FEP tanks to M1A2SEPv3 standard. Polish Army also plans to procure APS for M1 tanks, probably Trophy HV. Deliveries of M1 tanks for Polish Army looks like this: 2023-2024 - 116 M1A1FEP. 2024/2025-2026 - 250 M1A2SEPv3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Alfa Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) Just now, Damian90 said: M1A1's in long term storage are mostly empty shells, that either way will need refurbishment, overhaul and at least partial modernization before they can be fielded by any army out there that might buy them. Poland procured 116 M1A1FEP tanks with SCWS (Stabilized Commander Weapon Station) with AIDATS (Abrams Integrated Display And Targeting System) with slew-to-cue and RTS thermal sight with 3x, 6x and 9x magnification. So this works like CITV and gives commander hunter killer capability. These tanks also have BMS terminal and will use Sitaware BMS which was choosen for Polish Army M1 tanks. Poland also procured 250 new build M1A2SEPv3 tanks. In future it is planned to upgrade these 116 M1A1FEP tanks to M1A2SEPv3 standard. Polish Army also plans to procure APS for M1 tanks, probably Trophy HV. Deliveries of M1 tanks for Polish Army looks like this: 2023-2024 - 116 M1A1FEP. 2024/2025-2026 - 250 M1A2SEPv3. Is the US building new tanks, my understanding that all "new" tanks are rebuilds as per General Dynamics Land Systems has secured a production contract from the U.S. Army to upgrade 100 Abrams main battle tanks into the new M1A2 SEP v.3 configuration. The Army had earlier accepted the first of about a half-dozen initial production versions of the modernized main battle tank late last year. Just now, Grenny said: Edited January 16, 2023 by 12Alfa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian90 Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) 58 minutes ago, 12Alfa said: Is the US building new tanks, my understanding that all "new" tanks are rebuilds as per During MSPO 2022 in Kielce, Poland, I talked with GDLS and US Army representatives, all 250 M1A2SEPv3's for Poland will be new builds, not older tanks upgraded. GDLS still have capability to build new tanks. This was Polish Army requirement, that all these tanks will be 100% brand new, which I also confirmed with spokesman of Armaments Agency responsible for procurement with Land Forces Inspectorate. Edited January 16, 2023 by Damian90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Alfa Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Just now, Damian90 said: During MSPO 2022 in Kielce, Poland, I talked with GDLS and US Army representatives, all 250 M1A2SEPv3's for Poland will be new builds, not older tanks upgraded. GDLS still have capability to build new tanks. This was Polish Army requirement, that all these tanks will be 100% brand new, which I also confirmed with spokesman of Armaments Agency responsible for procurement with Land Forces Inspectorate. I knew they had the capability, but the timeframe? And that supply chain issues we are all living with, good thing you don't need plywood or eggs...:) Wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasyE Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 On 1/14/2023 at 4:11 AM, ole1291 said: That's the question... The debate was initially about whether the Leo2A4 and M1A1 that are likely to be sent to the war in Ukraine could resist BM42 rounds on the front. What do you think? M1IP upgrade dates to early 80s so still presumably aimed at improving initial M1 poor (relative to CE) KE protection, threat round at the time likely still BM22. M1A1 HA upgrade (with DU inserts) from late 80s logically defeats BM42, were all M1A1 HA upgraded to HA standard? Very interesting, thanks for bringing them up. The armor package of the M1A1 pre HA is a bit tricky to figure out. The stated protection in RHA terms is about 400mm against KE, from 25-30 deg offset. There are so many assumptions currently. If it is an evolution of the armor on the M1, then we can assume that it in part uses a spaced NERA array. The addition of "high-density" KE backpacks suggests a ceramic array, were part of the improvements. The 400mm vs KE RHA "might" (more assumptions) come from testing the M833 APFSDS against the array. Or a juice up M774 to represent a 115mm DU around fired faster. Both pen in the ballpark of 400mm RHA at near vertical. What we ALSO do know is that these monoblock DU rounds were much better against complex armory arrays then even the WU versions of the same rounds. The M833 APFSDS is very similar in dimensions to the BM-42. While the BM-42 uses a complex design, it did not outperform the shorter stubbier DU BM-32 against some complex armor arrays. So "IF the reference round for the M1 protection was the M833 APFSDS, and "IF" the armor array of the M1A1 (1985) is in part a complex spaced array. Then the M1A1 would probably be protected across the turret front against a BM-42. If the armor was tested against a WU test round with 400mm of pen, then a BM-42 probably would be enough at most ranges the 125mm is expected to hit at. A bit of a moot point as there were very few if any BM-42s in service with the USSR until 1988-1990. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted January 17, 2023 Members Share Posted January 17, 2023 I'm going to lock this thread, at least temporarily. Moderators will consider possible action. We may reopen the thread (or not). At this point, I can assure you that the Leopard 2 armor model in Steel Beasts is undergoing a critical review (which was the whole point of this thread in the beginning). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted January 26, 2023 Members Share Posted January 26, 2023 ...and the next update, coming February, will bring a revision. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts