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fidelthefallguy

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@Ash

I realy appreciate your open mind and thank you for that. You are always welcome at our spot. I hope you got yourself not in trouble!! Hey, I have seen a picture of you on your home ;) Nice to know who you are :)

Greetz

TC

Hey I have seen that picture. Scotsgrey sent it to me on teamspeak. :bigsmile:

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Well,

I have read this whole thing here now and I like to say somthing, too. First of all, I wonder why SBG has brought this thing up here, discussing about a situation, where the honorable members of SB.com have no clue about it. But it has happend, so...

Maybe some points. We do have the wendaysbattles against the SBG a long time now. which was great and we have had a lot of fun. But if members of our german community start to being upset, start to not attend to the wendsdays battles cause there are pissed about the BF2 like gameplay SBGs prefer, this is a damn good reason to start think about it and see, how to make our own member happy.

There has been a lot of stuff called, but on my personal try to make a szenario, where the map is limited as far as possible to make people to use more realistic behaviors has been answered by Billy with the following:

That is exacly the reason why 911 is going to draw the fights against the SBG down to twice, maybe once a month. I do read this to a simple line: They like to play BF2 style.

There is nothing wrong with that, but both sides have to agree to that way of gameplay. And since this is our server, paid by our money and there for our sort of gameplay it is up to US to decide what to do and what not.

And SBG, to bring this up here in SB.COM, complaining about this, drawing us as the bad guys on the wall will definetly NOT help to do any better!!!

Have a look for others, maybe you find some other people "playing" Steelbeasts as you like. But I do have the feeling, you should not count at 911 anymore. This here has been to much!

Thiefcatcher out!

Hey Thief,

This thread has nothing to do with me and what right have you to take another post from another forum and post it here. Fidel was just saying we need new opponents as we feel that 911 just cant cope losing every match and we need new opponents.

As I said in the past, I dont play BF2, so everytime you say BF2 I really have no idea what the hell you talking about.

We SBG members have very good gunners and players.

We dont sit in the open and get killed. We react to threats. We do what it takes to survive and win and thats what its all about in the end. Winning the battle with minimal losses.

I have always pushed for the wednesday battles to be balanced but you guys say its not realistic because those things dont happen in real life.

Playing equal force with equal objectives is the best way to go.

But you guys are saying its just not realistic because you always seem to be losing.

So you come up with ideas of limiting visibility in battles, increasing drag on the ground, playing scanarios first time only. Changing CO's, Forcing us to use the same units and ammo's. Playing attack and defend scenario with equal force, one side with good smoke and the other none. And the biggest of them all is forcing us to play corridor shooters with no room to move other than forward and backwards in those narrow width scenarios of yours and what do we do, we still PLAY and win.

Pzbtl 911 may feel that they are professional players that have good comms and follow doctrines but the results proves thats somthing just isn't right. There was an outcry in the past when you guys started to call us cheaters because we were winning. You guys couldnt believe that you were losing every game. Whys that?

And the answer to that I believe is we are just plain better. Hard to swallow but it could be true.

Now regarding my post on your forums. The wednesday battle how it is at the moment will remain how it is, we try and get scenario planned 2 weeks in advance so we always know what we doing on the night. You guys have time to review them because we propose them nice and early for you. You guys can see the map, discuss a plan well ahead. Simple and straightforward.

But you guys not happy with that either......... since nobody allowed to see the map beforehand, its more realistic that way.

Going to the realms of somthing else i.e campaigns or your suggested idea, than we need to look into another day for that.

Having got married and real life issues I dont have the time to start bitching about scenarios like I used to before and what we going to play. Remember we play once a week and believe it or not, a week goes fast and we need to have a scenario on the table for each week.

And who actually does that? Me and you guys . Both SBG and Pzbt911 are two strong VU's. We all enjoy the wednesday battle. Sure nobody likes losing but in the end we all Play it for fun. To have a good battle once a week. I end this post with good feelings because in the end of the day, Steel beast is a game we play it for fun, its not real life, so no worries.

End

Gen Billy

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Sorry Billy all you write above is nonsense, so no quotes.

SB is a SIMULATOR of reel tank tactics, not a game or something else.

THAT is a fact you and your community has to understand!

All the Sce. you and your guys throw in are made in Minutes. My opinion of a Sce. is NOT only to put some Units in a Map.

Your "Tactic" you train is not what I learned for Years.

Some examples?

- Attacking with Maintenance, Medic, Recce or Infantry in front

- Going around every boundary

- Sitting on the highest Points and let KI fire

- Using Woods to sneak around

- Using single Tanks instead of the whole Platoon

- Coming up with Battalion sized Sce.

etc.....

At our Home you can read that we try to simulate the real Bundeswehr Tank Tactic and the Battle of combined Arms, we pay for the game server and we try to make Sce. that are real (last Long night of Tanks for example).

If you can´t respect this facts, have a look for others to PLAY with, or have some nice fights and glorious wins against our Noobs.

Most of the Alte Garde of 911 would do other Sce. Wednesday!

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Posted by Eisenschwein

- Attacking with Maintenance, Medic, Recce or Infantry in front

- Going around every boundary

- Sitting on the highest Points and let KI fire

- Using Woods to sneak around

- Using single Tanks instead of the whole Platoon

- Coming up with Battalion sized Sce.

etc.....

  1. Maintenance and Medic up front are the result of one unbalanced player we keep because he's good at what he does. Recce is supposed to be up front. And since Infantry often rides with Recce, they are legitamate too.
  2. If you count going through forests as violating boundaries. We stick to what is in the boundary zone. We, as the Panzerlied says, just find a road that no one else found.
  3. If you mean AI, it's because we've got better things to be doing on the battlefield. If you mean KE, isn't that what everyone else here who plays does?
  4. What else are woods for?
  5. Using single tanks allows us to be more flexible, and we still try to keep our platoons together whenever we can.
  6. Uh...... What was that incoherentness about?????

Posted by Fidel

... until now PB911 have been very worthy opponents ....

He's right. They certainly have, but they're just not flexible enough.
Posted by daskal

Do I have to start posting some political/racist entries here to get this thread locked or what?

I would say only as a last resort. We're not quite that far embroiled.
Posted by Fidel

SBG was formed as an alternative to the other VU's at the time for those that did not want to play 'real tactics' but rather play a more relaxed game against the simmers or gamers alike. After two years SBG is still going strong and still growing, so we must be doing something right.

Damn right.:luxhello:
Posted by Billy

As I said in the past, I dont play BF2, so everytime you say BF2 I really have no idea what the hell you talking about.

We SBG members have very good gunners and players.

We dont sit in the open and get killed. We react to threats. We do what it takes to survive and win and thats what its all about in the end. Winning the battle with minimal losses.

That's the way we do our ops, and it's what YOU Germans SHOULD be doing. Edited by ChuikovChambered
Taking care of some removing of words.

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You SBG guys should follow Ashdivay's example. The sheer arrogance of some of your posts makes you appear like poor winners (which is worse than being sore losers).

The purpose of this thread was to find new opponents. How is your behavior helping in attaining this goal?

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Gamers or not, about a year ago when I was in the newly established Danish VU - "1st Armor Battalion (Vikings)" we were up against 911 2 times as I remember it, and 911 lost both matches and we were new and not even on the level SBG is, we were then also gamers - can only say that 2 / 3 of our former unit has military background, some of them is professional soldiers of Leo2A5 in the Danish defense.

Unfortunately the danish VU is gone dead, and i am back with SBG.

The problem is that your ( 911 ) tacktik suks, and you are professional loosers - WW1 & WW2.

Some examples?

- Attacking with Maintenance, Medic, Recce or Infantry in front

- Going around every boundary

- Sitting on the highest Points and let KI fire

- Using Woods to sneak around

- Using single Tanks instead of the whole Platoon

- Coming up with Battalion sized Sce.

- Attacking with Recce or Infantry in front !

Why not, thats a danish tacktik in the coldwar days, we only have 160 Leo1A3 in those days.

- Sitting on the highest Points and let KI fire !

Why not, you control the area.

- Using Woods to sneak around !

I remember one of our matches a few years ago when I came out of a forest with my Leo in your flank, can not see a problem because during II World War your country came out of a big forest 2 times to the great surprise of the alierede.

Ps. Finland has a big problem if you can not operate offensive in forest, the country is one large forest.

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The problem is that your ( 911 ) tacktik suks, and you are professional loosers - WW1 & WW2.

I'd still prefer having (and using!) the upgrade CD to only browsing steelbeasts.com but this ain't too shabby either! popcorn.gif

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Do I have to start posting some political/racist entries here to get this thread locked or what?

It doesn't look like you have to because your fellow SGB members are doing just fine on their own.

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[...]

The problem is that your ( 911 ) tacktik suks, and you are professional loosers - WW1 & WW2.

[...]

How old are you, 12 ??

What a shit, but it is what I suspected!

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And since Infantry often rides with Recce

That's not right!:decu:

Recce is well out in front of your main force, being Inf or Armour.

If , the Inf were with the Recce they could not maneuver to the enemy's side in a quick or hasty attack.

The task of your Recce elements is to find the enemy and or routes for the commander.

And in a time buffer to allow the commander to move his attacking force into to place while the Recce keeps a eye on the enemy on any changes that will effect his planning with the attack .

It is not however to give a ride to the Inf.:confused:

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Do I have to start posting some political/racist entries here to get this thread locked or what?

Can u fall to that level ? i mean fidel started the argument by degrading Pzbn and now that Gen's has fallen into the hole dug by SBG , u want this post locked ??

if u start an argument then dont try to shove it under the rug when it gets a bit rough.

You SBG guys should follow Ashdivay's example. The sheer arrogance of some of your posts makes you appear like poor winners (which is worse than being sore losers).

The purpose of this thread was to find new opponents. How is your behavior helping in attaining this goal?

I think this post is the worse thing SBG members did to their reputation, I personally had to stand up and voice my opinion because i dont want the SB commu to think everybody in SBG are like some people who have posted in this thread.

The problem is that your ( 911 ) tacktik suks, and you are professional loosers - WW1 & WW2.

I am sorry to say but i expected a lot better from you .

whatever happened to mature behaviour? or mutal respect ?

Regards

Ash

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History repeats itself. This discussion comes up every few years, and its always interesting to see if anyone has something new to say.

Ashdivay makes some very eloquent arguments that I fully agree with. It's just a clash of two different simming styles. I'll repeat my argument that turning map updates off will quickly level the playing field for everyone. "Lone sniper tank" tactics work great when:

1. You have perfect information. The current map gives almost perfect information on where all your tanks are, so you don't have to worry about shooting at those single pixel points of bright green in the TIS.

2. There are tons of other tanks to fall back on. Lost a lone sniper tank? Just pull another out of the motor pool!

3. Woods are excellent covered paths for movement. IRL woods are very slow going for tanks. It is slow and dangerous because the gunner cannot see 360 degrees around him without risking slamming the the turret into a tree. Hopefully, someday in the future we can simulate that part of the equation.

4. Getting support units and tanks killed in suicide attacks or using them as "bait" has no cost.

How to resolve these:

1. Turn map updates off. Do that and suddenly 911's radio discipline will become a great asset. It's shocking how quickly people get lost and wander off without perfect information on where they are and where their team mates are. Mogwa makes the arguement that the "once a weekers" cannot handle this, but it just takes some practice. Most of you have spent $125 on this sim so you are obviously a serious simmer. So why not make the effort? IRL, I believe tankers are taught how to read a map and use a compass to figure out where they are. I realize a lot of us play this for fun, but if you take the time to learn this basic skill it can be very rewarding. Same goes for using the radio correctly.

2. Reduce the number of tanks available, or have "expensive" reserves available that cost many points. It should also be noted that there is a spotting bonus for using platoon formations instead of single units. Operation Variable (tacbat's campaign) also addresses this by assigning a cost to every type of vehicle. Losing things costs you, so you have to be more cautious.

3. Increase the drag on the woods so units can only roll through at 5mph tops.

4. If a cargo truck is used as a decoy, cut the other sides ammo by 50% next time, and make the cost to replace it very steep. (Tacbat's idea again)

Here is some great reading on tactics and how they are applied to SB:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/battlelab/

Anyway, it sounds like people are really starting to take this personally so its not going to last much longer.

The discussion on tactics is a valid one, but its mixed in with how the generals and 911 feel about each other, which complicates things. It probably does not belong here, but I'll offer some unsolicited advise anyway.

I went and read Theifcatcher's post in the 911 forum. What he is trying to say is that he wants to change the ground rules of how you guys engage each other in battle. He went to the trouble of coming up with something specific, and what he was saying was pretty much ignored. Why not compromise a little? I don't think its really about winning - if they were such sore losers they would have quit long ago. Both sides still have something to learn from each other. It sounds as though they are turning the missions into battle labs type scenarios, so why not have fun with it? I'm not in either group so its tough to know the specifics of what has occured, but thats my two cents worth.

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I would ask people to edit their posts to remove instances of name calling. This is gone way downhill even while I was typing my post.

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I would like to see at least one if not two TGIF missions a month with no map updates.:eek2:

Who knows we might like it.:biggrin:

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Playing with no map updates certainly takes practice, the last time I played that way on Friday night, I almost got lost driving due south alongside a river. And then started taking fire from a unit I could not locate. And ended up handing off a platoon that was in the line of fire of that unseen unit, promptly getting the poor guy taking over the unit killed before he could get his bearings (I think it was Pipe).

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Well, I think all the points have been brought forward. Making the thread longer by repeating these points won't help.

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Posted by Ash

I am sorry to say but i expected a lot better from you .

whatever happened to mature behaviour? or mutal respect ?

I know this'll tick you off Ashtray, but I have to say this: Indeed.
Posted by Eisenschwein

How old are you, 12 ??

What a shit, but it is what I suspected!

Ash's words apply here too.
Posted by Ash
Originally Posted by Homer

You SBG guys should follow Ashdivay's example. The sheer arrogance of some of your posts makes you appear like poor winners (which is worse than being sore losers).

The purpose of this thread was to find new opponents. How is your behavior helping in attaining this goal?

I think this post is the worse thing SBG members did to their reputation, I personally had to stand up and voice my opinion because i dont want the SB commu to think everybody in SBG are like some people who have posted in this thread.

As for Fidel degrading the Germans, they started it. The Germans blew it open, we just announced we were looking for new opponents. And Ash, remember what I said about standing between two brawlers.
Posted by Eisenschwein

Sean thx for your replay.

We want all this things in the past,

but all were blocked by SBG.

So it was what it was before, Arcade.

What is this about????

Finally,

Posted by 12alfa

And since Infantry often rides with Recce

That's not right!

My mistake, I was referring to dismounts.

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Playing with no map updates certainly takes practice...
Remember when 1VUSC did this? We fumbled and stumbled and learned a lot.

Way back when, 29th AR did the same thing and called it 'Paper Tiger'. That was WTFC and was quite instructive at the same time.

Maybe it's time 'the old school' went back to work in this direction.

Shot

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Didn't the Paper Tigers always have somekind of Lord of the Rings reference to terrian features. Oh yeah, did the Paper Tiger in the Desert that I made ever get played. I can't remember.

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I agree with Sean. I say its tough for the "once a weekers" because that's exactly what it is. No map updates takes practice. It isn't easy to figure out how far you've traveled by using an average KPH and a general heading. Fewer terrain features to orient on makes this harder.

As for the trees, that's not the preferred method of travel for AFVs. It works in SB but not in real life. This isn't to say a unit couldn't work its way through a forest without a trail or road, but it isn't a great idea. The new version 2.460 allows the drag traction, and bumpiness in these areas to be set in such a way that travel through these areas would be realistically restricted and slow. Since bushes only affects human players LOS, the bumpiness and bushes that can be added to forest areas allow infantry with PRGs or missile teams to hide very nicely. Voila, problem solved. No one in their right mind would go trolling through trees(especially without map updates)

The combination of no map updates and terrain theme editing will now add new dimensions to scenarios.

Mog

Edited by Mogwa
added the part about bushes and AI

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A beautiful scenario, without map updates is: Svensken Kommer!

http://www.steelbeasts.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/263/p13_fileid/1347

Point is: this scenario is not too difficult at all !!

-> So for ppl not in favour of no map updates: have a look, you may like it after all.

-> And for ppl in favour of no map updates: there is no need to make a scenario with no map updates impossibly difficult, to end up with a very good scenario.

What is probably helpful in this scenario, is the presence of computer-controlled units on your side, on which you can orient yourself.

=> There is probably a way in between the 2 point of views of SBG & 911.

Small review of this sce:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=8313&page=3

Furthermore, with the SB-community being already small as it is, both SBG and 911 have a moral obligation to solve this situation and get together again.

(why not alternate & play one week on SBG's terms & the other week on 911's terms ?)

All the best,

K

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I am afraid i am not part of SBG anymore . i cannot be a part of this unit after what i said. but let me take this oppurtunity to bring this post back to what it should have been about " NEW VIRTUAL UNITS"

We need a new virtual units guys or lets restart some old ones. wer gettin lot of new people. lately and also some old ones.

time is right to get things going. it is time for some action and to pump some blood into this old tank. SB rocks. lets make it rock harder. woohooo.

Ash/AshTray/Aschenbecher

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