M60A3 commanders cupola powered traverse

[Fat Otaku]

12 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I think if you simply click on a vision block (or hit F4), you'll get to see through them.

Thanks for the reply! You can't do that in a M60 however.

I guess you might be able to move your head freely and move closer to the vision slits with a track IR. Hence it does not make much sense to me to not giving players the option to zoom in on the vision slits like on a M1A1.

[Lumituisku]

3 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

Thank for the insight btw! I am doubtful, however, on the connection between the cupola for the M48 and M60 and TC being taught to have their heads out. If memory serves, the TCs in WW2 also fought with their heads out when possible. 

 

3 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

Exactly what's bothering me when trying out the M60 in SB. I am not so convinced that, IRL, the vision blocks are as useless as they are presented in the game. I believe even the M4 medium tank IRL has better vision for the TC than what M60 has to offer in the game. (not to mention that the cupola is kept there since 105 tank M48 until the M1) I hope someone who is far more knowledgeable can adjust the modelling in the game to make the TC's vision more sensible.

 

That would be @TSe419E He served on those for many years.  anything he says you can take pretty much as a fact. And he did just confirm that those were... ungainly. Yeah sucks but that's how things sometimes are on Armor.

 

Also about Track IR 

It's slightly better but not much. You cannot move your head sideways only in depth. So in essence it's same as with N key just bit.. smoother. 

[TSe419E]

8 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

Hi may I have a question for you? On M60A1, it seems that the TC would be in charge of ranging. So what happens when, unbuttoned, the TC spots an enemy tank that is looking at them from distance further than a battlesight engagement? Do they swing the turret on the target and let the gunner figure out the range? Or do they frantically climb back down and get to the range finder to figure the range out for their gunner? 

One of two things.

1st:  They estimate the range (there are ways given that use common items on the tank that make it far more accurate than a guess) and tells the gunner the range and the gunner uses his 105D to acquire the target as the TC lays the turret on.  This method would also be used if the range finder were damaged.  "Gunner-Sabot-Tank!  2000m!"  "Identified!"  ("UP!")  "FIRE!"  "On the WAY!"  Boom.

2nd:  They lay the turret on the target; "Gunner-Sabot-Tank!"  "Identified!"  At this time they would make a short, controlled, drop so that they can use the range finder.  There's nothing frantic about it.  At most it would take the TC using his heel to flip up the bottom of his seat so he could drop directly to his foot rest (I did know a couple who would just flop down onto the seat without moving it).  ("UP!")  "FIRE!"  "On the WAY!"  Boom.

[TSe419E]

9 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

Thank for the insight btw! I am doubtful, however, on the connection between the cupola for the M48 and M60 and TC being taught to have their heads out. If memory serves, the TCs in WW2 also fought with their heads out when possible. 

True but in WWII US tanks didn't have cupolas as M48/M60 tankers knew them.  The idea of the cupola was to give the TC a fighting position that was under armor especially when using the .50 cal.  Every TC I knew/saw did everything they could with their heads outside the cupola because of the improved situational awareness, including .50 cal. engagements.

[TSe419E]

9 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

Thanks for the reply! You can't do that in a M60 however.

I guess you might be able to move your head freely and move closer to the vision slits with a track IR. Hence it does not make much sense to me to not giving players the option to zoom in on the vision slits like on a M1A1.

You can.  Fastest way is to hit "F3" the "F1", use the mouse to change your view so that a vision block is centered on the screen, then press "N."

[Fat Otaku]

9 hours ago, TSe419E said:

You can.  Fastest way is to hit "F3" the "F1", use the mouse to change your view so that a vision block is centered on the screen, then press "N."

 

9 hours ago, TSe419E said:

True but in WWII US tanks didn't have cupolas as M48/M60 tankers knew them.  The idea of the cupola was to give the TC a fighting position that was under armor especially when using the .50 cal.  Every TC I knew/saw did everything they could with their heads outside the cupola because of the improved situational awareness, including .50 cal. engagements.

 

9 hours ago, TSe419E said:

One of two things.

1st:  They estimate the range (there are ways given that use common items on the tank that make it far more accurate than a guess) and tells the gunner the range and the gunner uses his 105D to acquire the target as the TC lays the turret on.  This method would also be used if the range finder were damaged.  "Gunner-Sabot-Tank!  2000m!"  "Identified!"  ("UP!")  "FIRE!"  "On the WAY!"  Boom.

2nd:  They lay the turret on the target; "Gunner-Sabot-Tank!"  "Identified!"  At this time they would make a short, controlled, drop so that they can use the range finder.  There's nothing frantic about it.  At most it would take the TC using his heel to flip up the bottom of his seat so he could drop directly to his foot rest (I did know a couple who would just flop down onto the seat without moving it).  ("UP!")  "FIRE!"  "On the WAY!"  Boom.

So many questions of mine are solved! It's especially interesting to learn about the "short, controlled, drop" (I love this term)😂. Since the TC apparently has to move quite a bit to get to the rangefinder from the head-out position, I always wondered if it would be pretty slow. 

Thank you so much for your answers!

[Fat Otaku]

9 hours ago, TSe419E said:

One of two things.

1st:  They estimate the range (there are ways given that use common items on the tank that make it far more accurate than a guess) and tells the gunner the range and the gunner uses his 105D to acquire the target as the TC lays the turret on.  This method would also be used if the range finder were damaged.  "Gunner-Sabot-Tank!  2000m!"  "Identified!"  ("UP!")  "FIRE!"  "On the WAY!"  Boom.

2nd:  They lay the turret on the target; "Gunner-Sabot-Tank!"  "Identified!"  At this time they would make a short, controlled, drop so that they can use the range finder.  There's nothing frantic about it.  At most it would take the TC using his heel to flip up the bottom of his seat so he could drop directly to his foot rest (I did know a couple who would just flop down onto the seat without moving it).  ("UP!")  "FIRE!"  "On the WAY!"  Boom.

Love the fact that you mentioned ranging using common items here since I did not put much thought into it when I read it in a gunnery manual.

[TSe419E]

10 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

 

 

So many questions of mine are solved! It's especially interesting to learn about the "short, controlled, drop" (I love this term)😂. Since the TC apparently has to move quite a bit to get to the rangefinder from the head-out position, I always wondered if it would be pretty slow. 

Thank you so much for your answers!

You're very welcome.

 

As for the "short, controlled, drop," It's a better description of what they did than "frantically climb back down and get to the range finder."

In the copy of the page I posted the center illustration shows the TC's foot rest in its stowed position.  When in its useful position it can move up and down independently of the seat.  Some TCs were tall enough that they could, when the foot rest was at its maximum elevation, use this to stand on and have their heads outside the cupola.  Most TCs would stand on the back of their seat until they needed to range and either use their foot to move the seat to the raised position, dropping onto the foot rest, or just drop onto the lowered seat and bend over to use the rangefinder.  As a gunner I never noticed how long this took.  It always seemed to me to be one smooth action because there was no delay in the fire commands from when I identified the target to when I was told to fire.

[TSe419E]

22 hours ago, Fat Otaku said:

Love the fact that you mentioned ranging using common items here since I did not put much thought into it when I read it in a gunnery manual.

 

Here's more!

FM 17-12 RANGE DETEBMINATION 1978.pdf

[Fat Otaku]

On 10/5/2023 at 1:21 PM, TSe419E said:

 

Here's more!

FM 17-12 RANGE DETEBMINATION 1978.pdf 2.71 MB · 2 downloads

Sorry for my late reply

Thank you again! It is from the exact manual I read and it was really informative!

[TSe419E]

8 minutes ago, Fat Otaku said:

Sorry for my late reply

Thank you again! It is from the exact manual I read and it was really informative!

 

Glad you liked it.

[Fat Otaku]

On 10/5/2023 at 1:37 AM, TSe419E said:

You're very welcome.

 

As for the "short, controlled, drop," It's a better description of what they did than "frantically climb back down and get to the range finder."

In the copy of the page I posted the center illustration shows the TC's foot rest in its stowed position.  When in its useful position it can move up and down independently of the seat.  Some TCs were tall enough that they could, when the foot rest was at its maximum elevation, use this to stand on and have their heads outside the cupola.  Most TCs would stand on the back of their seat until they needed to range and either use their foot to move the seat to the raised position, dropping onto the foot rest, or just drop onto the lowered seat and bend over to use the rangefinder.  As a gunner I never noticed how long this took.  It always seemed to me to be one smooth action because there was no delay in the fire commands from when I identified the target to when I was told to fire.

Fascinating, thanks for sharing. I wish I can get a chance to get into an actual M60A1/A3, I want to try repeat how they did it. 

[TSe419E]

1 hour ago, Fat Otaku said:

Fascinating, thanks for sharing. I wish I can get a chance to get into an actual M60A1/A3, I want to try repeat how they did it. 

 

The only place, outside a few countries' militaries, that an M60A1 can be accessed is Battlefield Vegas.  At one time they were selling packages that included firing the main gun, albeit from outside the turret.