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Infantry not shooting from houses anymore?


Hase
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Hi folks,

I have a problem with infantry in 2.460: They do not shoot their rifles (not sure about RPG, Fausts, LAWs, MGs etc.) from houses. Enemy infantry can walk around occupied houses without a single shot being fired, whatever I do (yes, with ammo, fire at will).

Scenario for testing is very simple: 2 platoons of infantry (one red, one blue) on the map, one side in houses. Other platoon moving around outside the houses => no shooting (at least on my computer with my installation).

What´s going on? Can anyone comment on this?

Greets

Hase

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  • 2 weeks later...
Well, the problem was found and fixed now. The problem had to do with collision detection and buildings, which is also preventing the RPGs and ATGM from getting out.

Volcano, when you say this problem was fixed, does this mean there is something in the game that we can change to make infantry fire from Buildings or is this fix going to be in a patch?

Thanks

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It is something that will be fixed in the next update, along with several other things as well. As far as when the update will be, we just don't know yet for certain, but it will not be too far off. We are aware of the hassle that this and other bugs are causing people and are doing our best to fix it ASAP.

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I take it this is also why I can only get the TOW to fire from a M2/M3 only about 30% of the time even though I am on level ground? It seems that even a small amount of ground cover will stop the TOW from firing. I would say anything short of being on a slope that the gunner of a M2/M3 should be able to send a missile, even if it is going to hit something that is going to stop it at a short range.

Jugdriver

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I take it this is also why I can only get the TOW to fire from a M2/M3 only about 30% of the time even though I am on level ground? It seems that even a small amount of ground cover will stop the TOW from firing. I would say anything short of being on a slope that the gunner of a M2/M3 should be able to send a missile, even if it is going to hit something that is going to stop it at a short range.

Jugdriver

Well, it is hard to say. There could be all kinds of factors in play. For one thing, you have to be in high magnification (10x) in order to fire the TOW. If you aren't in high mag then it will not fire. Besides that, shooting from houses should have nothing to do with the TOW missile on the Bradley. Just to make sure you are on level ground, you should jump out to the external view to make sure the launcher is fully raised.

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The M113 TOW does not use its tow missiles to engage armoured vehicles. It fires the 0.50 cal MG but never the TOW missiles. I tested the same with the Hummer with Tow and this one fires or the M3 but the M113Tow does not fire TOW no matter how much armour its in front. :frown:

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I am not seeing this. I see both the M966 HMMWV and M113A3 TOW firing ATGMs in a standard test consisting of putting these units on the map with blind T-72s in the distance.

Are the vehicles in question not on level ground? Anything equipped with a TOW missile *must* be on level ground before it can fire or the guidance will not function properly (so the unit will not fire it).

Edited by Volcano
typo
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Ok while preparing a test scenario for demosntrating the M113 TOW issue I discovered this. The M113TOW actually fires a TOW missile just if the target is a heavy armoured vehicle.

For instance it fires TOW missiles on every MBT and some heavy IFV such BMP and CV-90.

However it just uses the 0.50 Cal on LAV-25, ASLAV-PC, VEC.

if the VEC or the LAV-25 are not retourning fire this is nice, but on a combat sittuation I am not sure one M-113 Tow would engage such vehicles just with 0.50 cal MG. Would be great if the player could control which ammo is to be used. Now even when "controlling" this unit, I cannot order it to switch from 0.50 cal MG to TOW.

Another interesting thing I discovered is that the in game TOW systems other than the human controlled Bradley one, do not have Thermal/IR sights as for instance the AN/TAS-4A in the TOW 2. This makes that they simply do not see targets beyond visual range. Just make an scenario with visibility reduced to 200 meters and place any target at lest say 500 meters.

The Tow equiped units other than the Bradley do not see the target.

Is this a known issue in SB? Would be fixed someday?

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Just to make sure you are on level ground, you should jump out to the external view to make sure the launcher is fully raised.

I am definitely on Level ground and the launcher is up. I will post scenario information this weekend when I get a chance so you all can test.

On a side question, I know the dismounted TOW on the tripod can work on a slope up to 30 degrees, what is the maximum the slope the M2/M3, M113, and 988 HMMWV can launch their missiles in SB?

Thanks

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I am definitely on Level ground and the launcher is up. I will post scenario information this weekend when I get a chance so you all can test.

On a side question, I know the dismounted TOW on the tripod can work on a slope up to 30 degrees, what is the maximum the slope the M2/M3, M113, and 988 HMMWV can launch their missiles in SB?

Thanks

The Tripod is good for up to 30 degree slopes, as the legs can be adjusted to a significant extent. The sight unit requires less than 10 degrees cant, or it will produce incorrect guidance commands, and a vehicle mount is not flexible enough to reduce the cant angle at all. It is quite possible IRL to have a position where a vehicle is unable to obtain low enough cant, but the tripod can be installed with the sight head nearly level.

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if the VEC or the LAV-25 are not retourning fire this is nice, but on a combat sittuation I am not sure one M-113 Tow would engage such vehicles just with 0.50 cal MG. Would be great if the player could control which ammo is to be used. Now even when "controlling" this unit, I cannot order it to switch from 0.50 cal MG to TOW.

Well, I imagine that it all has to do with the range to the target. If the range is beyond 1500-1800 meters then I bet the TOW will fire at these targets (it would make a good test). Under this range, it is trying to engage the target with the cal .50 to save TOW missiles. I am not sure if anything can or should be done about this at the moment. The best way to avoid AI engagement routines like this is to take away their HMG ammo in the scenario editor. Other than that, you are at the mercy of their artificial "intelligence" for now.

Another interesting thing I discovered is that the in game TOW systems other than the human controlled Bradley one, do not have Thermal/IR sights as for instance the AN/TAS-4A in the TOW 2. This makes that they simply do not see targets beyond visual range. Just make an scenario with visibility reduced to 200 meters and place any target at lest say 500 meters.

The Tow equiped units other than the Bradley do not see the target.

Is this a known issue in SB? Would be fixed someday?

The question is, in real life, do these portable type TOW missile launchers (M113A3 TOW, M966 HMMWV, TOW ATGM team etc) have a thermal sight? AFAIK, the answer is no, they do not. On the bradley has an ISU mounted in it that can be used to fire TOW missiles. What these protable TOW missile sights have is day and night sight. The night sight of course is a light amplification sight and is, certainly, not a thermal sight equivalent. In other words, nothing needs to fixed here AFAICT.

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On the other hand, it is recognized that the 1990s+ ATGMs (such as Javelin, STORM etc) should be equipped with a thermal sight and this could even be extended to the Milan 2T and AT-13 ATGM teams as well (since such a sight was later developed and equippable on these missiles). One more thing for the "to do" list.

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The question is, in real life, do these portable type TOW missile launchers (M113A3 TOW, M966 HMMWV, TOW ATGM team etc) have a thermal sight? AFAIK, the answer is no, they do not.

I don't think this is correct, but I am looking into it. I believe the original launcher was upgraded to thermal Optics and most certainly the newer M220 (M41) launcher/optic has FLIR

JD

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The M966 has a thermal, at least in SB.

Try starting up with a M966 not "battle ready" and you'll see the "TIS cool down" period for about 5 minutes beforehand.

I noticed this when working on a .sce the other night and had some Chinook-dropped M966s that I wanted to have be "prepped" before roll-out. That's the only effect I could see when I hopped in there a few minutes after the "air drop."

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The question is, in real life, do these portable type TOW missile launchers (M113A3 TOW, M966 HMMWV, TOW ATGM team etc) have a thermal sight? AFAIK, the answer is no, they do not. On the bradley has an ISU mounted in it that can be used to fire TOW missiles. What these protable TOW missile sights have is day and night sight. The night sight of course is a light amplification sight and is, certainly, not a thermal sight equivalent. In other words, nothing needs to fixed here AFAICT.

AFAIK the modern launchers in the M113 have incorporated a Thermal sight.

In Spain we have the TOW LWL (Light Weight Launcher) in some of our vehicles like the URO (kind of a Hummer) the M113 and others

The TOW LWL Launcher have Thermal sight since 1995

I think other countries like Denmark also have the TOW LWL on their M113 and I guess that despite this has been initially developed for the Spanish Army I think the LWL is now in use on other armies as well including the US Army

JANE'S Information about the TOW LWL by 1995

tow.jpg

Afghanistan-Spanish-ISAF-Badghis.jpg

TOA+PN+MCCLA+TOW+RIMZ.31.VOL.3.1.JPGç

abl.sized.jpg

abi.sized.jpg

Maybe it coud be fixed someday.

Edited by Furia
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Ok, I guess I am behind the times on the updated TOW missile launch platform.

Maybe it can be "fixed" one day, but since the M113A3 TOW was asked for by Denmark, and they haven't said anything about the lack of the TIS on vehicle then we can only assume that is how the vehicle is employed by them (so it would not be "broken" in this case). We will have to do a bit of investigating though, but of course everyone *should* understand that there are hundreds of configurations of exported vehicles - especially modular vehicles with modular ATGM launchers. At the very least, it seems like the better approach would be to allow it anyway (such as on the M966) and then allow the mission designer to damage / disable it if it is an older model. I wouldn't exactly say that this is a top priority at the moment though. ;)

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Sounds good to me. Thanks.

Actually since the Spanish Army is one of the few Armies with the TOW LWL and they are one of your customers, maybe they would be happy to have it properly implemented on their training SB....... :)

Ahh regarding the Danish Army, although I do not know how 100% reliable is this source, here you have:

m113tow_1.jpg

Danish Army M113 TOW

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No Worriers Volcano, it is not going to make or break things. I will do some research about when thermal imaging became standard on US TOW systems.

Of course it would be sweet to be able to crew a M966 HMMWV, talk about a great ambush tool.

JD

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