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Driver killed = dead tank


daskal

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Well its not really bug, but a rather annoying thing. In version 2.460 if the driver gets killed that vehicle becomes pretty much useless unles a medic vehicle patches up the driver - crew is no longer able to shift positions - say loader/gunner takes over drivers position, and TC would shift into gunners place. In real life I would assume the tank crew would try to cover for the loss of the crew member by shifting over the positions.

Will this new "feature" remain permanent in SB?

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Well its not really bug, but a rather annoying thing. In version 2.460 if the driver gets killed that vehicle becomes pretty much useless unles a medic vehicle patches up the driver - crew is no longer able to shift positions - say loader/gunner takes over drivers position, and TC would shift into gunners place. In real life I would assume the tank crew would try to cover for the loss of the crew member by shifting over the positions.

Will this new "feature" remain permanent in SB?

its to take into account that if the drivers spot is hit,the driving controls might have become messed up by something passing through there.

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I was in the drivers position of the new Leopard earlier and on turning at fast speed I clipped a building with the right-rear portion of the hull. 'Destroyed' then appeared!!

Clipping a building took out Germany's finest!:biggrin:

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In version 2.460 if the driver gets killed that vehicle becomes pretty much useless unles a medic vehicle patches up the driver - crew is no longer able to shift positions

Interesting, in the sense that it will force us to play SB in a bit more realistic way: if someone is wounded, you must try to heal them.

Of course, in reality, in the middle of a fight, this may not always be possible, but before in SB, one could totally ignore this fundamental idea.

Makes the game more tactically interesting as well: you must really use your ambulances etc ...

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Well its not really bug, but a rather annoying thing. In version 2.460 if the driver gets killed that vehicle becomes pretty much useless unles a medic vehicle patches up the driver - crew is no longer able to shift positions - say loader/gunner takes over drivers position, and TC would shift into gunners place. In real life I would assume the tank crew would try to cover for the loss of the crew member by shifting over the positions.

Will this new "feature" remain permanent in SB?

Yes, it is here to stay until we can have better crew management proceedures.

The problem was, the driver disabled damage had absolutely no effect whatsoever before. The driver was instantly replaced by some entity and he was not replaced by anyone in the turret either. The driver could be disabled and you could still continue to drive the tank with manual controls from the TC's position (or from F9) without skipping a beat. It was obviously wrong before.

The rationale now is that you wouldn't just toss the wounded or dead driver out of the vehicle, you would have the medic evac the wounded or dead driver and/or replace him. Since driver damage is so strict, it places greater importance on the medic vehicle, which is a good thing. :)

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I actually voted for a much more severe penalty, that the tank would continue to careen through the area until running into an obstacle stronger than the tank, or a random period of at least 30 seconds to two minutes where the crew would attempt to get the tank to stop.

Eventually, once that we have a crew bail function, we may make the crew abandon the vehicle (depending on its speed). There isn't much that you can do in reality to stop a tank if the driver has been incapacitated, and pulling the driver from his place is very difficult under begnign circumstances and may be impossible during combat.

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I can see the rationality behind it and also that it was falsely handled before. But still it would be nice to be able to shift/manage positions within the vehicle when you are sitting idleing for 30 mins with no threats whatsoever around.

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What's so special about the ambulance, really? Isn't every member on a crew trained combat first aid? Why can't the crew treat their own injured instead of waiting for the ambulance?

Having a mechnical reason for the tank not being able to move is one thing, but not being able to move a tank when the other three crew members are alive and well is utterly frusterating.

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Well, why is a medic even needed in combat? We all carry bandages and such. What it comes down to is the severity of the wounds. But really, it is assumed that the driver (and other disabled crew members) are so badly disabled that he requires either a medevac and replacement with another individual who has been cared for already or by some replacement that is riding around in the medic vehicle, or requires additional treatment that only a medic can provide. Who knows, it is an *abstraction* of course which is mostly necissary because we don't differentiate between dead and disabled / wounded.

I think we can assume that a disabled crew member is just beyond the ability of Joe Schmoe to treat with his crevat and first aid kit. I am sure it will get more detailed as time goes on.

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Hopefully, one day, there can be more extensive crew management on the vehicle itself to where you can instruct a crew member to swap out (basically swapping disabled status to another position after a few minutes), and even perform first aid ability on disabled crew members. The first aid ability would have to be lesser than the medic, ie. it would take much longer to do. Of course you also need the ability to say that if a disabled crew member is not treated in so many minutes then he dies. And while treating a crew member the tank probably should'nt be allowed to do anything else similar to reloading.

It is a can o' worms for sure. But as it is now, it is much better than the invicible driver that had no effect from damage. Now there is a consequence, but there is still a way to magically repair him with the medic too...

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I actually voted for a much more severe penalty, that the tank would continue to careen through the area until running into an obstacle stronger than the tank, or a random period of at least 30 seconds to two minutes where the crew would attempt to get the tank to stop.

Eventually, once that we have a crew bail function, we may make the crew abandon the vehicle (depending on its speed). There isn't much that you can do in reality to stop a tank if the driver has been incapacitated, and pulling the driver from his place is very difficult under begnign circumstances and may be impossible during combat.

This! This! This!

Having high speed vehicles go out of controll and crash into trees or other vehicles would be friggin sweet! Instead of the casual stop they do when the driver is hit now.

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I noted that the speed restrictions by increased bumpiness of a given terrain seem to affect the auto-driver only, you could command maximum speed, but it nevertheless remains limited both for the vehicle and the rest of the formation. But I had one or two events where I noted that when I manned the driver's position myself, I then could accelerate to much higher speed, leaving the formation behind.

I also saw vehicles, tanks, slowly sliding down a hill even if it was not too steep, when jumping to the formation in question and finding it halting. Nothing major, but when youn plan a battle and order a battle position where next they wait ten minutes for the enemy to show up, it could make a difference between a hull-down and a fully exposed vehicle. I am not aware in how far the AI is aware of these shifts and corrects the sliding position changes every once in a while, maybe.

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I noted that the speed restrictions by increased bumpiness of a given terrain seem to affect the auto-driver only, you could command maximum speed, but it nevertheless remains limited both for the vehicle and the rest of the formation. But I had one or two events where I noted that when I manned the driver's position myself, I then could accelerate to much higher speed, leaving the formation behind.

Yes. This incurs the risk for suspension damage however. Computer controlled vehicles will keep a speed that avoids this. With suspension damage you can still move around, but only at a much reduced speed.

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Hear, hear!

-Rump

I want to see tanks having no German valid TÃœV-license simply falling apart when going rough!

P.S. TÃœV in Germany is mandatory for cars, a technical exam that must be passed every 4 years. If any eventually found deficits do not get repaired, they sack the operation license for the car.

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Of course there is. That's not the argument as I see it. It's the possibility of having just the driver incapacitated, and the other three crew members standing around doing nothing until either the medic shows up, or an ICM barrage completely finishes the job.

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Of course there is. That's not the argument as I see it. It's the possibility of having just the driver incapacitated, and the other three crew members standing around doing nothing until either the medic shows up, or an ICM barrage completely finishes the job.

Well, since you are pushing it as an argument:

In the real world, there is the possibilty (a high probablity actually) that if a driver of a vehicle is disabled from hostile fire then so too would the controls, control panels, and instruments used to actually drive the vehicle itself. Its not like the driver suddenly exploded in the driver's compartment with no other damage. But we don't really cover that and the medic "magic heal" simply cures the vehicle and allows it to be drivable again. It can certainly be rationalized either way as faulty.

Personally I would love to see the gunner swap with the driver (so that the gunner becomes disabled and the driver disabled damage is removed) after 5 minutes or so of inactivity. I think it is pretty forgiving to allow the "magic heal" from the medic in 10-15 minutes but of course the medic cannot be everywhere. On the other hand, if you have driver damage then chances are you have other crippling damages as well LOL so I don't see how this can be so aweful in light of the way it used to be (driver damage with absolutely no effect).

What it comes down to though is that there *needs* to be more options available for crew management to the TC of the vehicle. With such options, the TC could better manage the crew and replace (or not replace) who he wants. Until that time, we have a design decision which elminates useless driver damage yet elevates the importance of the medic.

Edited by Volcano
typos
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from my experience (afghanistan)

if a driver is dead, that driving station is out of working state!!!

maby entry hole screw every thing on the way

or the floor is not there anymore.

On other case the floor is crooked, the seat is gone or else

worst

an HEAT and APFSDS-T round are prety messy, stand happy that the rest of the crew is not gone ethier

So real life hit that cause major injuries, is an out of action veh...period

this is my five cents to this crew managing, that will probably never work.

A hit is a hit and it cause a lot of damage that need a lot of work to put the veh

in working state.

McDLT

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That said

combat support in this game is good enough for what is needed on a combat mission

either stuck veh, small injuries , combat reload-refuel and minor track and coms problem

so pro pe is very extended on wath it can do in regards to original

and is good enough for combat mission

we just need a few other tank since it is a tank sim...my point of view

McDLT

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Yes, granted that if a crew member is injured IRL, then there's probably a mechanical problem too. However, in the sim, damage is reported if there's something broken, whether it be a road wheel or the suspension. In game, to assume that something has been damaged when the driver is incapacitated is unsound reasoning. There will be a red damaged indication on the side of the screen explicitly stating what has been lost.

So, driving down a road through a village, and hitting a building causes the loss of the driver only. So according to the sim, the tank is still 100% operational, it just needs a new driver. So why wait around for the medic if another crew member can take the driver's position, and carry on driving (most likely back to the medic to get healed).

Now, if mechanical systems are linked to the demise of the crew members, that's another thing, but I don't believe this is what is happening in game. For example, the loss of the loader, gunner or commander doesn't mean you also lose the ammo, main gun or the turret. So when ONLY the driver is lost, that shouldn't mean that the tank is permanently disabled until the medics show up. Crew swap and carry on.

Also, if we are going to assume that there is vehicle damage with the loss of the driver, then why do the medics "repair" that too when they revive the driver? :)

Debating is tiring work. :)

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