The List poll

[singleshot]

so, Furia. Pls tell me, what should happen with people, which vehicle was destroyed, if there is no F8 view. Should they be stuck at their destroyed vehecle for the next 2 and a half hours of the scenario? What should happen by pressing ALT + F10, SHIFT + F10,...?

[Hackworth]

Well for me it is an issue that ruins my multiplayer matches.

...

On IFV we have this sorted out using our dismounts to do the recon for us.

If E-Sims considers that Tanks also have to have the capability to take a look around, well they could add just "one dismount" making the role of dismounted loader so people can "take alook around"...

Anyway as I said before, I am not asking for the feature to be removed or excluded and asking the people to bear with it but all I am asking is that scenario makers have the option to enable or disable the F8 external view in MP scenarios as well as they do have in SP.

Puzzles me why it is possible in Single Player and not in Multiplayer and why people that likes to use External view does not compain about this being enforced by the scenario maker.

Can we have both ways, enabled and disabled?

firstly, i've never seen you in multiplayer (yet), so come on TS!

secondly, not a bad idea about the dismounts, but again, not enough time in the day kinda thing. i wouldn't be surprised if it popped up at the same time that visible vehicle crewmembers are implemented (pretty damn sure this is on the_List).

I wonder how many people uses the TC periscopes while in contact when they have the Wonder View...

third, and i really take offense to this statement, especially since i haven't seen you in TS playing and you just started playing sometime around the last wheat harvest. i rarely get into "wonder view" -- i prefer the TC position. some people like to ride around in the gunner's position (bad SA...). you seem to have such a bug up your ass over this that i wonder how much you use the wonder position and let the AI fire for you... there. i added a slap. of course, the best position for most situations (prior to and during combat) IMO is the TC position. but, that's my opinion.

as for the reason why it's not in multiplayer, and i apologize for forgeting about the associated bug -- not really a bug, more of a "compatability" issue, was stated by singleshot, though in question form :biggrin:

okay, one last thing. my tank is better than your tank. there! haha, and my feature request is better than your feature request! haha just kidding. anyway, we all have our own opinion on this. stage left. moving on.

[Furia]

Sir, I take no offense. I have not sen you in our Spanish group TS neither so I guess you do not play MP neither :diable:

hehe just kidding, we are forming a dedicated Spanish player group and we do use to play every evening between 5 to 8 people at least since I got my Sb copy.

We will soon have a site and so. We will post about it on this forum when it is done.

We do specialice in multicrewing each tank with at least 2 members each vehicle and so far we are faring quite nice with the Spanish vehicles.

We do even have our own Tournament already running.

So Yes I do play MP, actually I just play MP :biggrin:

Maybe you can explain me why SB is the only simulator in the planet that cannot make compatible external view with multiplayer.

Let me tell you some that do:

Battleground Europe,

Dangerous Waters,

Silent Hunter 4, III, II

IL2

Operation Flashpoint

Americas Army

Armed Assault......................... I could continue but the list would be too long

All of them have without troubles the option to remove external view either in SP or MP.

I just have a further question. Do military customers on their networked classroom have to endure such "unreal feature" or it is only limited to us "commercial customers"?

And my last question :debile2:

If we ever have an MP match on your TS, would you use the cheat of external view or not? :biggrin:

[Furia]

so, Furia. Pls tell me, what should happen with people, which vehicle was destroyed, if there is no F8 view. Should they be stuck at their destroyed vehecle for the next 2 and a half hours of the scenario? What should happen by pressing ALT + F10, SHIFT + F10,...?

Ok let me tell you how they manage in other simulators.

If you got killed, in some of them you go back to a menu screen where you select how you want to spawn again that is what vehicle.

Other let you on your dead vehicle and then you select ona drop down list the avalaible vehicle to respawn.

regarding the ALT+F10 and so, well we have a seirous limitation on Sb because a lot of vehicles have no internal stations so they must be controlled from the outside and this is a handiccap, but I see no reason why those vehicles could not have this external view ENABLED while the human manned one have it disabled at the same time.

Like when creating an sp scenario. You can limit external view but those vehicles without internal station, have the external "enabled"

I am startled to find so many fans and supporters of this "unreal limitation"

I can understand the developers would like to keep it this way mostly to do not deviate their efforts on this sinetad other issue they consider more important but that the playerbase is "SO HAPPY" about having this unrealistic view on a very realistic simulator really puzzles me.

Anyway I was just proposing to add this to the poll, if you guys do not like this option, simply do not vote it and vote other like the real weather...

And please do not tell me that this is not possible neither because it would rain inside the tank if you leave the hatch open :biggrin: just kidding

[CalAB]

I'm not to sure about the rest of the forum members but I can definitely disable the external view for whatever scenario in multi player, just tested it in fact. Is that what the complaint is all about? If I read it right it sounds like Furia can't uncheck the external view for any of the scenarios he runs for multi player.

[Tacbat]

The answers is:

YES

and

YES

Now Please answer me:

Would the commander of a tank while moving around of an enemy city full of hostiles, disembark his tank to peek around EVERY corner, while exposing himself to small arms, snipers... and to leave his tank without TC?

Would the TC make his tank (platoon/company) stop EVERY berm in a desert so he can climb on top of the turret to take a look while his unit is a sitting duck?

Answer either YES or NO?

Actually, the answer to the first two of my questions is "No". You better look at them again. Now, for your questions:

No - That's what the infantry is for.

Yes - If they are stopped behind a berm, then how can the EN see and engage them?

This topic is quicky becoming as tiresome as the one on suspension.

I'm not to sure about the rest of the forum members but I can definitely disable the external view for whatever scenario in multi player, just tested it in fact.

Uh, no you can't. How are you testing it? You may be able to uncheck that option in the mission editor, but once you are in game, external view is still available.

[Hackworth]

...And my last question :debile2:

If we ever have an MP match on your TS, would you use the cheat of external view or not? :biggrin:

i think i answered that fucking question.

[Volcano]

Ok, lets all calm down please. Take a deep breath.

Here are the facts:

The external view in multiplayer is a can-o-worms, it is not as simple as you might think. At one time, many years ago, (maybe 6+ years ago actually) the external view restriction *did* work in Network Session. When someone died in their vehicle they were left at the dead vehicle external view which was fine, right? Sure, but in the middle of battle users click on units on the map or they press "next platoon" or "next vehicle" buttons and jump to other people's vehicles. Now, since there was no external view, they got sent to the gunner's position on other people's tanks because it was usually the position that is open. This was very irritating(!) as you would have people pop in and then pop out as they hopped around all over the place to find an empty tank. Needless to say this caused the tank to stop scanning while they were in the gunners position figuring out what they hell is going on or while they looked at the map and the owning player would have to scream to tell them to jump out. This almost always resulted in the death of that tank, and it was replicated as the hobo tank squatter jumped out and into yet another user's tank.

The external view was therefore needed as a neutral place to catch all the observers where they could not cause any trouble, and believe me, this is the lesser evil at the moment. Now you could say, "well that is a simple fix! In the Assembly Area just select that you do not want people in your tank". NO. Many people *want* to have others in their tank at later points in the mission, like when someone else has lost all of their vehicles.

There are ideas floating around internally on how best to bring it back with minimal hassle at some point. Unfortunately it is an extensive change that requires some time and careful planning and implementation. So when design decisions are made like this, you can rest assured that there is at least 10+ years of history in the decision.

Yes, military customers have the same external view available to them. In reality you can justify the external view by the fact that on the real vehicle you would indeed have greater situational awareness as some have already mentioned. Others do not agree with that and that is perfectly fine. It is quite simple though really, they just don't use it if they think it is unrealistic. I suggest that you do the same if you have such a problem with it. If you are playing with people you know then enact a 'house rule' not to use it. It is obvious to see that you are not satisfied with this approach but it is not like you are *required* to use the external view.

That is all I will say on this subject.

[singleshot]

Furia, you are talking about unrealistic views and tell us, that respawn is an option? How realistic is this in simulations in simulated battles? I don´t think a real CO can mark an respawn point, and a lot of vehicles come from there... :eek2: Get killed and you´re dead.

It maybe can be solved as Volcano described it. Let him jump to the next gunnerseat or to the driverspositions. But what if all positions in the other vehicles are fully manned? Then he only can stay at his destroyed vehicle or leave the scenario.

And I don´t think, that most of us are fans of F8 view. I´m sure most people, who posted some arguments, that this view could be let enabled, would like to see it disabled. I would like it too. On the other hand it is also fun and interesting for me, to look over other peoples "shoulders", to see how they behave or react in certain situations.

[Furia]

I'm not to sure about the rest of the forum members but I can definitely disable the external view for whatever scenario in multi player, just tested it in fact. Is that what the complaint is all about? If I read it right it sounds like Furia can't uncheck the external view for any of the scenarios he runs for multi player.

Sir you would make me very happy if you found a way to do so.

So far we know that despite the menu option "disble external view" is avalaible, it only works on single player. If you start a multiplayer sesion, no matter you have selected to disable external view, you have it.

However if you have found a way to prevent this, I would send you a case of best Spanish Rioja wine gladly

[Furia]

Furia, you are talking about unrealistic views and tell us, that respawn is an option? How realistic is this in simulations in simulated battles? I don´t think a real CO can mark an respawn point, and a lot of vehicles come from there... :eek2: Get killed and you´re dead.

It maybe can be solved as Volcano described it. Let him jump to the next gunnerseat or to the driverspositions. But what if all positions in the other vehicles are fully manned? Then he only can stay at his destroyed vehicle or leave the scenario.

And I don´t think, that most of us are fans of F8 view. I´m sure most people, who posted some arguments, that this view could be let enabled, would like to see it disabled. I would like it too. On the other hand it is also fun and interesting for me, to look over other peoples "shoulders", to see how they behave or react in certain situations.

yes Sir this is how I like to play, You are dead and that is. Period.

We use to play with very short number of tanks so if you got killed you are out of the game and this is how I like.

However I was told on this very forum about the poor player that got killed and could not wait 2 hours to the match to end so he has to respawn inmediately and this was the reason to have the external view enabled.

Despite I do not like this way of playing I fully respect it so I guess there should be options for all kinds of playing ways.

If you are dead, you are dead, it is as much unrealistic to jump into a new tank than to jump into a gunners or driver possition to another tank located 3 km away.

So we first have to define how we do want to play and how much realism we want. If the sim just give both options to the players to choose, then you force nobody to play in a way they do not like.

You can play with 100 tanks and endless lives while using the "wonder" view and I can play 2 tanks vs 2 tanks no more lives and no external view, and we all would be happy enjoying this great sim our own way.

You make your scenarios with External view ENABLE and I would make mine with External view DISSABLED. Everybody happy.

I fail to see where the trouble is. :confused:

[Homer]

This has all been discussed before. Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=10663

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=8272

[CalAB]

Uh, no you can't. How are you testing it? You may be able to uncheck that option in the mission editor, but once you are in game, external view is still available.

You are correct Tacbat. I tested in a network session but I was solo. As soon as one more joined the network F8 was in effect.

Sir you would make me very happy if you found a way to do so.

So far we know that despite the menu option "disble external view" is avalaible, it only works on single player. If you start a multiplayer sesion, no matter you have selected to disable external view, you have it.

However if you have found a way to prevent this, I would send you a case of best Spanish Rioja wine gladly

Marvelous. To bad I can't get the F8 to not work lol. Sorry to get your hopes up Furia.

[Hackworth]

Furia

Member Join Date: Mar 2009

You can play with 100 tanks and endless lives while using the "wonder" view and I can play 2 tanks vs 2 tanks no more lives and no external view,

please tell me again how you would know anything about how we play.

Furia, i wish there were a work-around for you, but there isn't (so far). please stop insulting everyone you don't play with, and don't know anything about.

[Furia]

Thanks for the interesting links Homer. I can clearly see that everything has already been said about this.

This feature is an issue about tastes and how one or the other perceive "reality".

Computer gaming as it is clearly said on the Sim manual is surely not the same as to really sit in a tank. But we are not sitting in a real tank but "simulating" it with its limitations.

For me trading one loader (Why we do not have loader to man the M3MG on the Leopard 2E for instance?) for the external view is in my humble oppinion not the way to do.

I have never been in a MTB during operations but I do fly helicopters for living and no sim has yet matched the peripherial vision I get in real life neither the spatial awareness you have on a real aircraft, however I do not use external views on those sims to compensate for the lack of the real perceptions.

Actually no Sim I know reproduces to the detail the little amount of tasks that its "real life" simulated thing has. For instance I am sure than a Leopard TC have to do quite a number of steps to open the turrent hatch and climb out of it, while here we just press Q.

Also I am sure starting an Abrams turbine (actually an aviation one) is not just accomplished by Shift-Backspace in real life. No complains on this, I just want to point out that I we are all aware that simulation has its limitations and shortcomings and this is normal.

Regarding the thing about the TC or loader to dismount while on an hostile city to take a look in the corner, you have to bear with me I am just an Airforce Reserve and I have no real life armour experience but is this normal that a MBT goes alone on a hostile hot city WITHOUT friendly IFV, dismounts and so and one of the crewmembers have to expose himself such way? What happens if the loader is sniped? who will load the main gun so the tank can defend himself?

Is for this specific sittuation we ALL have to endure this "Wonder view"?

However we could argue here hours about this, and it would end up to the way people likes to use this sim. As in the interesting links Homer posted you can clearly see different playing "concepts" from players. Some like commanding Battalion Level and spend a lot of time in F5, Others like Platoon lever and then jump from tank to tank and there are some other like me and some of my colleagues that like to play 1 tank each and most of the time multicrewing one tank with 2 or even 3 humans.

All options are ok and valid afterall we are all customers that pay to play this sim the way it makes us happy.

So my question is again, why just not to have the option to Enable or Disable it as per the Host taste or scenario designer taste.

If you like to keep it, keep it, and if you like it disabled, then just disable it.

As Ssnake mentioned on the older thread, this feature is avalaible on the military classroom. So why not to ask to have it here as well?

I am sorry to have bother you all bringing up this old issue that I was not aware it has been discussed already in detail.

The nice thing of the polls is that if you prefer to have for instance "french tanks" instead "Enable/disable external view" you can always vote whatever that makes you happier.

As for me I keep my respectful request to have this option enable someday if E-Sims considers it convenient and I will not contribute to continue this thread subject anymore. I have nothing more to add that I have not said it already

[Furia]

Furia

Member Join Date: Mar 2009

please tell me again how you would know anything about how we play.

Furia, i wish there were a work-around for you, but there isn't (so far). please stop insulting everyone you don't play with, and don't know anything about.

Sir I pretended to offend nobody but if I did I sincerely apologize. I was not meaning nobody in particular but giving an example of how people could choose to play if this was their choice.

[Koen]

Sir I pretended to offend nobody but if I did I sincerely apologize.

Well Furia, in any case, regardless of what your "join date" might be, you are fully entitled to voice your opinion here - just like anyone else.

I don't believe you broke any forumrules or at least, you did not intend to do so at all.

In fact, a good debater with inventive arguments, like you seem to be one, is always welcome (to keep the forum alive) - whether one agrees with you, or not.

Buenas tardes, Koen

[GH_Lieste]

Well, I'm opposed to blocking all external views, as it severely compromises the ability to manoeuvre certain classes of units in critical operations.

Mostly these revolve around the use of bridging assets - without a 'simulated' engineer supervising the crossing it is impossible to determine the vehicle position during the first lay of a four bridge crossing of a 3 pixel river (a minor bug with the draw order of water from the driver position, where the hull is always drawn last/on top even when submerged), accurate driving over the bridges to obtain good triple bridging with a fair road surface, and then accurate driving of the vehicles over the combined bridge with the final action being the collection of the deployed bridges - these are all tasks with a high likelihood of a dismounted controller or which require more precision and control than is possible using the available displays and feedback options.

Ultimately enforcing this will reduce realism in some areas, without adding much - any 'AI' only vehicle can still be used in this manner to observe over and around obstacles, although I doubt it is used as much as you fear to gain routine advantages, and it can only be useful at relatively close ranges, external view in narrow view compares fairly precisely to the TC binos view, offering little advantage.

[Sean]

As Ssnake mentioned on the older thread, this feature is avalaible on the military classroom. So why not to ask to have it here as well?

I think ssnake was referring to the observer host mode. External/observer view cannot be disabled in the military version either, just tried it.

[Hackworth]

Well Furia, in any case, regardless of what your "join date" might be, you are fully entitled to voice your opinion here - just like anyone else.

I don't believe you broke any forumrules or at least, you did not intend to do so at all.

In fact, a good debater with inventive arguments, like you seem to be one, is always welcome (to keep the forum alive) - whether one agrees with you, or not.

Buenas tardes, Koen

i completely agree Koen. but i take offense to the assumptions made in all of the posts regarding F8 and how players use it. and i point out his join date to emphasize the fact that he's never played with me and never played with most people here, yet seems to have a great idea about how everyone utilizes F8. furthermore, he is just beating the same argument over and over in each post with nothing relevant to add to it -- though i agree well thought out and expressed (in most ways)... anyway, i made my point. i got all silly cuz i was offended. now i'm really moving on.

p.s. offending people (in most cases) is not against the rules Furia, so no harm done -- just a nice arguement.