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Request for a British Army Mod


FletchRDG

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lets hope so, it would benefit the lads. I mean they could take it home, even play online with colleagues to find a good stratagy. I would definitley love to see the Challenger 2, CHARRV, Land Rover Defender 110, FV432 'bulldog', the scorpion family and warriors. Bring more major powers into the game. have British scenarios like bosnia, Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Iraq, the falklands, etc,etc.

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lets hope so, it would benefit the lads. I mean they could take it home, even play online with colleagues to find a good stratagy. I would definitley love to see the Challenger 2, CHARRV, Land Rover Defender 110, FV432 'bulldog', the scorpion family and warriors. Bring more major powers into the game. have British scenario

I would have really liked to have been able to use a simulator like this when I served in the Royal Armoured Corps,using vehicles that we trained with,especially as a crewman we did not get involved with movement tactic's,that was the commanders job.

Lets hope that something can be sorted so that British vehicles can be put on here.I dont see what all the fuss is about with the Challenger II armour,we have supplied it to the American Army,so the armour should be the same.

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well dorchester armour, has another name called "next generation chobham" armour, i read it in a main battle tank and APC/AIFV hand book. was like my bible lol coudnt put it down, was fasinated in all these different tanks and APCs, most of all the engineering vehicles. the monsters of the battlefield (interms of size not armament lol)

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afaik theres 2 types, dorchester and chobham.

chobham was given to the US army, and they modified it with DU.

dorchester is improved chobham, and we know less about that.

actually, all we know is that its "better".

ok,so there is 'dorchester' and 'chobham',big deal.This is a computerised simulator,so to get the Challenger II on here,just agree to use the same armour charicteristics as the armour on the M1A2 used on this simulator and get it up and running on here.

I could come back with the argument that we cannot now use the current M1A2 as there is development underway on the M1A3,so the A2 variant is obsolete so why use it!.If you want to be a purist,why not post on here that in the name of reality,we are not allowed to use D.U. ammunition on the simulator because it might be cancer causing.

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ok,so there is 'dorchester' and 'chobham',big deal.This is a computerised simulator,so to get the Challenger II on here,just agree to use the same armour charicteristics as the armour on the M1A2 used on this simulator and get it up and running on here.

I could come back with the argument that we cannot now use the current M1A2 as there is development underway on the M1A3,so the A2 variant is obsolete so why use it!.If you want to be a purist,why not post on here that in the name of reality,we are not allowed to use D.U. ammunition on the simulator because it might be cancer causing.

Well you cant just grab the M1A2s armour and dropp it on the challenger, to much would surely differ. However there is always some good estimations out there, I know Esimgames have used a guy wich name i cant remember for hes estimations before, so Im sure he will have some on the CR2 as well. and knowing if its Dorchester or Cobham might affect the armour values. and details is all it is about my friend.

/KT

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oh dear kt. it would appear that you have opened the worlds biggest can of worms!

classified info is not the nature of ammunition or the power pack as that is widely known as are the dimensions and capabilities. the classified stuff is the armour - strengths and weakness. but it is right to say that should a contract be made between the MOD and ESim Games then yea i am sure the correct modelling could be achieved. i for one can see the enormous benefit that this software could bring to training.

estimations exist in your Esimgames/docs folder, named Armorbasics.pdf. here is what relates to CR2:

CR2estimatedarmor.jpg

Its an fairly old estimation so my bet is that if the CR2 would get implemented into SBP there would be a need for new estimations, but as you can see here its available.

/KT

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well i think that as soon as we get this all sorted, the more time we can play with the challenger 2. the americans are forever upgrading that ancient machine, i dont think the look would change, just the interior i would expect. personally Id prefer older gear as its more reliable then most vehicles on the battlefield today. this is my wish list:-

Land Rover Defender 110 "wolf"

Scimitar CVRT FV107

Bulldog FV432 (APC/Field Ambulance)

Challenger 2 MBT

CRARRV (Challenger Armoured Recovery and Repair Vehicle)

Warrior MV-80 APC

(maybe if the Americans and Canadians have an air unit, why not the westland lynx utility/support helicopter)

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Well you cant just grab the M1A2s armour and dropp it on the challenger, to much would surely differ. However there is always some good estimations out there, I know Esimgames have used a guy wich name i cant remember for hes estimations before, so Im sure he will have some on the CR2 as well. and knowing if its Dorchester or Cobham might affect the armour values. and details is all it is about my friend.

/KT

There are details,I agree,but if you really know the qualities and composition of Chobham or dorset armour,I'm sure the Russian military attache would like to talk to you quite soon.Besides,all armies tell lies about the capabilties,or lack of,for various reasons about their equipment.

As far as details are concerned,I'll pay attention to anyone who spent as long as I did sitting in a driving seat or gunners seat of a tank doing it for real,how long did you serve in the Royal Armoured Corps,Kingtiger?.

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There are details,I agree,but if you really know the qualities and composition of Chobham or dorset armour,I'm sure the Russian military attache would like to talk to you quite soon.

Just because I dont doesnt mean the guy who do the calculations dont or have a fairly good clue? (otherwise Esimgames wouldnt use his stuff I guess)

Besides,all armies tell lies about the capabilties,or lack of,for various reasons about their equipment.

Ofcourse, like the swedish CV90, Mats told me that they are using figures below the real spechs. that because its bettehr to have it more vulnerable then overkillingmachine so the guys dont get to confident.

As far as details are concerned,I'll pay attention to anyone who spent as long as I did sitting in a driving seat or gunners seat of a tank doing it for real,

So you will never listen to Dejawolf then? hes a total civvie but as he does the 3D models for this game he knows allot of the models he works on as he need to know the details to get it right. I understand your POV but I would say its a bit narrowed...

how long did you serve in the Royal Armoured Corps,Kingtiger?.

Never, we dont have Royal Armoured Corps around here. ;)

Sweden uses conscripts so I only spent 10months as APC gunner on PBV302 in a Mech Coy belonging to a mech Bat. (before that 6months as Mech inf squad leader with ATGM as specialty)

So just because of the fact I havent served in a CR2 forbids me to try to get the details right? - unlogic my friend.

/KT

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Just because I dont doesnt mean the guy who do the calculations dont or have a fairly good clue? (otherwise Esimgames wouldnt use his stuff I guess)

Ofcourse, like the swedish CV90, Mats told me that they are using figures below the real spechs. that because its bettehr to have it more vulnerable then overkillingmachine so the guys dont get to confident.

So you will never listen to Dejawolf then? hes a total civvie but as he does the 3D models for this game he knows allot of the models he works on as he need to know the details to get it right. I understand your POV but I would say its a bit narrowed...

Never, we dont have Royal Armoured Corps around here. ;)

Sweden uses conscripts so I only spent 10months as APC gunner on PBV302 in a Mech Coy belonging to a mech Bat. (before that 6months as Mech inf squad leader with ATGM as specialty)

So just because of the fact I havent served in a CR2 forbids me to try to get the details right? - unlogic my friend.

/KT

I agree that you dont have an Royal Armoured Corps,but then again you dont have an Army that has seen any service in a theatre of war since Gustavus went on a rampage in Germany,and then he was stupid enough to get himself shot!As for your infantry service,I spent 6 years as a rifleman before they even let me near a tank,big deal.

I am quite impressed with anyone who can do the calculus required to model the vehicles on this site,I dont know how to and would'nt try either.

The point I'm trying to raise is that you can only approximate as to the qualities of various armies equipment,so therefore use some kind of benchmark on the vehicule model and then modify it at a later date,what is the point of trying to replicate the qualities of armour down to the molecular level.Anyway,why call me your friend,I dont know you and I dont like you.

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agree that you dont have an Royal Armoured Corps,but then again you dont have an Army that has seen any service in a theatre of war since Gustavus went on a rampage in Germany,and then he was stupid enough to get himself shot!

some smart guy once sayed "keeping peace is a victory in itself" or something similar. the fact that sweden has managed to stay out of war is something I dont see negative on. Sweden nowadays concentrate more on Peace KEEPING operations then starting wars, as a difference from UK wich like to play dogtail to the US ;)(yeah I know, no politics in here but he djumped me with Gustav)

The point I'm trying to raise is that you can only approximate as to the qualities of various armies equipment,so therefore use some kind of benchmark on the vehicule model and then modify it at a later date,what is the point of trying to replicate the qualities of armour down to the molecular level.

I see your point, but didnt your Lt ever told you what my Lt told me? "its the details that seperate the amatuers from the profesionals"

Just because you CANT get it 100% perfect doesnt men you shouldnt strivefor 100% perfection, then you will never get perfection and all stuff you do would fall apart sooner or later.

Anyway,why call me your friend,I dont know you and I dont like you.

Oh I just try to hold things on friendly levels, I hate to argue when you can use civil conversation. And I meet all persons as friends untill they have proven to be jackasses, and so far you havent proved to be a jackass yet. I recognize your attitude, I once had it myself but I grown away from it luckfully, its a attitude normally found with lower grade soldiers (like below Lts), I saw that attitude on a Major once and that supprised me, normally the attitude goes away when passing Lt or when grown up in the Lt Suit. So I dont really hold your attitude against you in any way, but this makes me curius on why you dont like me? have i done anything to you? have I insulted you? etc?

But sure, I can stop calling you my friend, but on this forum we all try to stay friends, sure not eweryone can stay friends forever but you can always start out as friends.

Maybe I should take the moment and be polite enough to say "welcome to the forums!" :)

Be friendly, use the search button and brows old topics, here is much to catch up on :)

Cheers! /KT

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some smart guy once sayed "keeping peace is a victory in itself" or something similar. the fact that sweden has managed to stay out of war is something I dont see negative on. Sweden nowadays concentrate more on Peace KEEPING operations then starting wars, as a difference from UK wich like to play dogtail to the US ;)(yeah I know, no politics in here but he djumped me with Gustav)

I see your point, but didnt your Lt ever told you what my Lt told me? "its the details that seperate the amatuers from the profesionals"

Just because you CANT get it 100% perfect doesnt men you shouldnt strivefor 100% perfection, then you will never get perfection and all stuff you do would fall apart sooner or later.

Oh I just try to hold things on friendly levels, I hate to argue when you can use civil conversation. And I meet all persons as friends untill they have proven to be jackasses, and so far you havent proved to be a jackass yet. I recognize your attitude, I once had it myself but I grown away from it luckfully, its a attitude normally found with lower grade soldiers (like below Lts), I saw that attitude on a Major once and that supprised me, normally the attitude goes away when passing Lt or when grown up in the Lt Suit. So I dont really hold your attitude against you in any way, but this makes me curius on why you dont like me? have i done anything to you? have I insulted you? etc?

But sure, I can stop calling you my friend, but on this forum we all try to stay friends, sure not eweryone can stay friends forever but you can always start out as friends.

Maybe I should take the moment and be polite enough to say "welcome to the forums!" :)

Be friendly, use the search button and brows old topics, here is much to catch up on :)

Cheers! /KT

Surprisingly enough,I was attached to the Swedish Army whilst I was serving,and I enjoyed myself quite a bit,so nothing against the Swedish Army at all.

As for the attitude,it's quite obvious that you hav'nt had mutch to do with the British,if we did'nt have anyone to argue with,we would fight with ourselfs.

A bit of snobbery about rank now,wait untill you have more information about someone before you try that tack,the efffort is wasted.

All this being said,if I have offended either you or anyone else on the forum,I do apologise for my bad manners.that being said,I will not accept being lectured by anyone who has not crewed an A.F.V. about tanks.

Ok,so lets hope we are all friend's again,

Hugh.

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Sounds fair and good enough, no harm done :)

The attitude thing is a thing I have just noticed in the Army and from guys I have talked with from different countrys have given me the print that its general for all countrys armys so I dont think its far of. but there is no proofs or rules for the attitude thing, just purely something Ive noticed. (just because you leave the army doesnt mean you leave your army life and contacts :) )

now, Im a curius guy so I got to ask to see if I was right, what rank do you have and what is your/was your position in the tank? (CR2?)

Cheers! /KT

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I think we should all calm down. the information is needed to build the Mod and KTs experience helps him and Daju, as a team, build the Mod. I dont think you should really knock the swedish really they are really smart when it comes to Military technology.

He wants to make this Mod and see it on the game as much as any British Army personel on this forum would, whether he was in an Armoured Corps or not, hes done his service for his country like most of us here have.

it all helps in end with alot coorperation.

[ATTACH]6020[/ATTACH]

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Sounds fair and good enough, no harm done :)

The attitude thing is a thing I have just noticed in the Army and from guys I have talked with from different countrys have given me the print that its general for all countrys armys so I dont think its far of. but there is no proofs or rules for the attitude thing, just purely something Ive noticed. (just because you leave the army doesnt mean you leave your army life and contacts :) )

now, Im a curius guy so I got to ask to see if I was right, what rank do you have and what is your/was your position in the tank? (CR2?)

Cheers! /KT

Ok,so we are all friends again.

let's see,I was a Trooper during my service,but managed to get to Lance Corporal(PFC to some) for a day,but I got busted by the end of the day,so a non-starter for me there,but I joined the Army to enjoy myself and I did,I was offered the oppertunity to become an officer but I refused,I just was'nt interested.

You are correct about the attitude,military service changes you,and even now I can more easily relate to people with military service than those who have not served.

I initially served as a driver,and then I was a gunner,then back as a driver in a tracked ambulance as punishment.Not that it was a punishment,sleeping on a strecher,myself and the commander only in the vehicle,a radio,portable tv,a penthouse tent on the back of it,the commander cooked all the food and we got left alone by everyone because nobody know what our role really was when there were no live bodies.

I quite like this simulator,and I am really appreciating the work that has been put into it to make it as it is,it is VERY realistic and very demanding,I wish we had been able to use something like this.I recall that we had just started using a Swingfire missile simulator to train the gunners in our Squadron and it was very crude compared to using the TOW on the Bradley on here on range training,which is why I dont understand why our MOD does not buy this sysyem to train on,real ammo is very expensive to fire off.

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I agree, not only that. RAC personel can take it home, use it on their PCs, play online with other countries and colleagues around the world. Its a great platform to base training on. you could learn to drive a mission, be a gunner in a mission or a TC. it works, even a loader/operator (more operater coz he cant even see the breach block lol)

its cheaper, last longer and can easily be updated

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Oh and guys, lets clear som stuff out so there is NO chance of missunderstanding here.

The work on british vehicles is just a side project, Deja do the CR2 for fun and I have started learning on the FV432 as a first model to learn on. All we can do is model the 3D model and collect info and hand over to Esimgames.

ITS TOTALLY UP TO ESIMGAMES if they want or DONT WANT to implement it, and if they want to implement it its up to them WHEN they want to do it. We can in no way affect that. And it isnt a mod in anyway, if british vehicles shows up its because they have been added, its no such thing as a british mod( then we would have a swedish, australian and Spanish mod to the game already). just added vehicles, nothing more.

So once again, we can only do the easy work (3d modelling ,data collection" and hand over to Esimgames, and then its up to esimgames on IF and if so WHEN they wish to implemement it.

!!!So please do not in any way asume this WILL be in SBP or that Esimgames are involved in it or taking responsebility in it!!!

(so you dont start nagging on poor Ssnake on why the CR2 arent implemented yet etc)

Clear ?

/KT

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It wouldnt be on a FV432 Ambulance?

I was driving a Samaritan,which was a member of the C.V.R.T. family (scimitars,scorpion's,etc).They were ok,but the aluminium armour did'nt give me mutch confidence.They were very prone to throwing their track's in muddy fields or turning over and killing their commanders.They are still in service,but unfortunatly the American Air Force A 10 pilots like to use them for moving target practice in Iraq,perhaps we should use the Americans for target practice in return.

It seems that simulators are the way to train armies these days,although the British Army dos'nt see it that way,and tank crews are expensive to train so why not use sims,I'm all for it,the American Army get good results from theirs.

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I wouldnt trust the US army as far as i can throw them, although their technology is very good they dont know how to use it properly. infact I wouldnt trust the US Military, they cant recognise friendly units, so they dont varify it they just go ahead and rip the crap out of it. that poor bloke in that scimitar I feel so sorry for.

Americans need to recognise insignia and their allies tanks. The Brits and the rest of europe go out their way to recognise these things so NO friendlies get hit.

But this programme has to be the most state of the art sim at the moment, the armies of the world are spending millions in these huge simulations but all they need is this 1 disc.

£1.5 million for a simulation unit, Steel Beasts Pro PE £60

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I am glad that we have all managed to settle our differnces.

I for one am all in favour of UK equipment being introduced. As a British RAC officer who has Troop lead on CR2 and been the Sqn 2IC of a CR2 Sqn and hopes to one day Sqn lead on CR2, I can see the massive benefits of using this simon as a training tool one level down from CATT. However, as ssnake has pointed out before new vehs are added due to the demands of the contracted military users and not the gamers. Simple case of economics. I will though continue to live in hope. May be i will become the SO3 simulation on the next jobs list!

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