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Request for a British Army Mod


FletchRDG

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ah i see, well i dont think it should be just shund to one side. This is an optunity for soldiers to easily train for any situation at home, at work or even on the move. i think this has been heated but it needs to be said or no will know the pros and cons of it all.

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Why should you be asking questions like that in an open forum,it is bad manners at the very least,and I dont like it,either apologise or f**k off!

Bad manners eh.

I have asked two or three times already if he owns a copy of SB Pro PE without an answer. It does have relevence to the debate to know who we are speaking to as it could save on going over the same things again and again. As for apologizing I do not think my questions merrit an apology to anyone, however you Sir should have a good think about your last post, which at the very least didnt answer my questions.

Irish

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no i have not served, and no I do not have the SBPP but I am intending on getting it and My father served, this is were al my studies and observations have steamed from. I love tanks, its my obsession. I was born into that Regiment, most of those serving now ive lived around most my life so to be honest i really dont need a lecture.

Hi Fletch

firstly I appreciate your enthusiasm towards this Sim, however I strongly advise you to get a copy of SB Pro PE as we are in practice talking about 2 different programmes. You will be more thsn pleased with it of that I'm sure.

I too have been pushing for its adoption by the British Army and have quite a bit of informed knowledge about the British Armys procurrment process in particular with Simulations.

For your knowledge I also served in the RAC commanding Cheiftan, CR 1 and also CR 2 whilst serving in the QRIH and later in the QRH.

It does help if people have an idea who they are speaking with as this not only lends credence to what is said but also avoids people duplicating and being condecending ie they will know what level to pitch the debate.

As for what hugh47 posted, he just burned out any bridges to credence or help that he could hope for without a public apology.

Not that you have asked for it but I do apologise if my questions offended you. At least now you know why I was asking.

Irish

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Irish, Shame I missed you at ARRCADE FUSION last yeat but it would seem that you were enjoying the creature comforts at HICON.

I understand that the MOD have been approached before. Seeing as though I am only a lowly OPs Offr I have submitted the suggestion through the GEMS process. I guess we will just have to wait and see where that goes. There is a certain amount of reality check on this. Even if SB is procured by the MOD I would still be surprised to see the kit in the Sim all though it may prove useful as a recruiting tool.

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I think that some of the other UK AFV's that are known, ferret, warrior,scorp/simitar,cheiftan, centurion would be a easer choice to put into the sim as they are pretty (open source) to gain the necessary info.

The Challey 1,2 are about the same as the Merkava series as to gettin the required info to place into the sim at this time i would think.

There are lots of other AFV in service UK and other nations that would add to the sim in a great way.

I do agree that posting here as some do with a attitude is counter productive, and should not be tolerated.

Just my 2 cents

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Hi Fletch

firstly I appreciate your enthusiasm towards this Sim, however I strongly advise you to get a copy of SB Pro PE as we are in practice talking about 2 different programmes. You will be more thsn pleased with it of that I'm sure.

I too have been pushing for its adoption by the British Army and have quite a bit of informed knowledge about the British Armys procurrment process in particular with Simulations.

For your knowledge I also served in the RAC commanding Cheiftan, CR 1 and also CR 2 whilst serving in the QRIH and later in the QRH.

It does help if people have an idea who they are speaking with as this not only lends credence to what is said but also avoids people duplicating and being condecending ie they will know what level to pitch the debate.

As for what hugh47 posted, he just burned out any bridges to credence or help that he could hope for without a public apology.

Not that you have asked for it but I do apologise if my questions offended you. At least now you know why I was asking.

Irish

Thank you for all your comments,of course I should have realised that as I am not a 'senior' member,I should ask permission to express an opinion.Have you seniors gone out and had yourself tatoo'ed with 'I am a senior member on esim games'.

I will certainly not apologise to anyone who makes a point of publically sneering at a young man on here who may not have the money to buy the full game,but still wants to participate with the discussion and belong,and for current 'serving senior members' of the British Army,congratulations for supporting a bully.

I dont give a damn who anyone on this site thinks they are,or their opinions of me,and I will not change this stance about on-line bullying or arrogance.If you dont agree,too bad,live with it.

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Hi Charlie

shame we missed each other but wild horses wouldn't of dragged me out in the Field, especially during that weather.

I think you do have a point with Gems however as I suggested to an other interested party, Don Hawes, on a different forum I think the more UK soldiers take this up as a hobby the more "Press it would get". It is another angle of attack to be considered, for example an article in the "Soldier Magazine" in its IT section would do no harm whatsoever.

Irish

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I think that some of the other UK AFV's that are known, ferret, warrior,scorp/simitar,cheiftan, centurion would be a easer choice to put into the sim as they are pretty (open source) to gain the necessary info.

The Challey 1,2 are about the same as the Merkava series as to gettin the required info to place into the sim at this time i would think.

There are lots of other AFV in service UK and other nations that would add to the sim in a great way.

I do agree that posting here as some do with a attitude is counter productive, and should not be tolerated.

Just my 2 cents

wery true 12Alpha, and the other ones will be done in 3D as well. Ive started on the FV432 and in my opinion the Warrior and scimitar will be done as well so there will be stuff around to play with, but what worth is it when you dont have a MBT for the forces in a MBT sim? so a CR are needed really. Deja and I have talked loosly of setting the dates and versions to Gulf War 1 wich would make it somewhat easier I guess to get info for the CR1 as its getting older now.

/KT

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Irish,

Definatly worth a thought. I am not sure how they go about condcting the reviews for the IT section. I would be a little hesitant about adding it into the "games" section though. Perhaps eSim should get themselves an article in "Training and Simulation News" certainly one that lands on my desk for some reason - but I am not sure how wide the reaership is amongst the powers that be.

Hugh the majority of people on this site who command support and respect have achieved that position not through the number of posts they have made but by the quality of the posts. You only have to post 30 times to stop being a junior and at the rate your going you will probably manage that today! If you were to spend some more time here and be involved in the online side of life you will find that many of the senior members on this site will give new members time to bring them on board assisting them through IT dramas when attempting to play online. To be rude to people you just don't know is just offensive and bad mannered. There is no call for it. I would suggest you attempt to cool off. This is not the place for muppetry. I am afraid that you have made your bed and you are the one who will have to sleep in it.

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CharlieB and Irish. I apologise greatly, ive read your post Irish sir and no apology needed. I felt my position as a Non-Combatant was abit open to damage as most of the lads here on this forum have served their country and i havent, of which im greatly unfortunate due to a knee injury preventing me to join the RAC.

Senior staff, I have the most respect for as they do work hard, KingTiger im mostly greatful for, being able to talk and exchange information with him to bring about the CR1/CR2 and current UK vehicles into being.

I really do hope it gets pushed so far that the CR2 will come into the lime light sooner then later.

I just want to help as much as i can, as i know every classified piece of kit on the Chally 2 but as we all know cant divulge to anyone.

but you apology is excepted sir.

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you forgot a few others, the max and minimum FOV of the daysight and thermal.

Quite so. I managed to find all those for Challenger1. Details on TOGS was harder to get, but between a British army staff officers manual and an interesting article on development on British thermal systems for tanks, I worked that out too (though I cant remember if that all made it into the precis I wrote)

Re Challenger2, I do recall finding details on the Thales V580 sight in Janes AFV upgrades that looked to tally with their commercial flyer. I too heard a similar story about the MOD, but this dates back to the begining of development of SB2/SB Pro, probably about 2002/2003. I also think they were not too keen on forking out for a 3d model, but I dont know the veracity of that.

As for the Challenger2 model, if you decide to do that I would recommend the plans in the Challenger 2 book by concord. The ones in there looked pretty good. Ones with uparmour are more difficult, ive not seen any plans of Challenger2 with this fitted. One work around may be to get some of those for Challenger1 (as I say, early types fitted to Challenger2 were the same uparmour packs, even with desert paint on them!) and there were some of those issued in military modelling magazine many years ago. if you ask on Bradfords AFV news forum, you many find someone who can scan a copy for you. I managed to get an excellent set of plans from Tamiya modeller magazine on the Centurion Shot that way. I would also ask Nils if he has some of those photos I sent him of the Challenger2 proto at Bovington. You may find those of assistance.

Best of luck to you anyway.

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originally post by: stuart666

I would also ask Nils if he has some of those photos I sent him of the Challenger2 proto at Bovington. You may find those of assistance.

well ive done the Chally2 turret for him, a detailed and accurate lined drawing of the veiw ports, scopes, weapons, antennas, storage boxes, etc, etc. just need to create the hull which cpuld also be used for the Chally1.

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well ive done the Chally2 turret for him, a detailed and accurate lined drawing of the veiw ports, scopes, weapons, antennas, storage boxes, etc, etc. just need to create the hull which cpuld also be used for the Chally1.

Did you get any details of the Dorchester Level 2F uparmour? (ie the one with the turret side armour, and stryker style cage at rear)? I got some photos of that at the 2006 Bovie show, well as good as could be got as it was pissing down! Re Tanks, good lad, nothing wrong with a healthy AFV obsession. Ive been a trackhead anorak since I had a ride in a Universal carrier when I was 6. It wasnt in service with the British army at the time I would add!!!

Anyway, any details you get, please consider posting them up on tanknet. We are always happy to see a new Challenger thread.

CharlieB, I quite agree with you, functionally they are very different machines which is why it irritates me no end on tanknet when Challenger2 is judged on the formers performance at Cat87.Vickers Defence systems said there was only about 30 percent interchangeablity. Even the tranmission is different, and the engine (which is ostensibly the same) appears to have changes to it. You would clearly know more about that than I. On the other hand, I still think Challenger1 could be good start as far as an external 3d model is concerned. I did get some pretty good imagery of the privately owned C1 at Beltring about 4 years ago, which appears to have been a testbed for C2, and includes the transmission of the latter apparently.

RE FV432, I did give Esim a precis on that for the Mk1. That was a first effort and I think it could stand revision. Frankly I think a Mk2 would be a better idea. That seems to be the main version still in service (I assume the Mk1 started to be reduced in 94?) and would appear to be the basis of the Bulldog. I didnt have a Mk2 manual when I did it (I do now) so clearly it could do with revision.

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Did you get any details of the Dorchester Level 2F uparmour? (ie the one with the turret side armour, and stryker style cage at rear)? I got some photos of that at the 2006 Bovie show, well as good as could be got as it was pissing down! Re Tanks, good lad, nothing wrong with a healthy AFV obsession. Ive been a trackhead anorak since I had a ride in a Universal carrier when I was 6. It wasnt in service with the British army at the time I would add!!!

Anyway, any details you get, please consider posting them up on tanknet. We are always happy to see a new Challenger thread.

CharlieB, I quite agree with you, functionally they are very different machines which is why it irritates me no end on tanknet when Challenger2 is judged on the formers performance at Cat87.Vickers Defence systems said there was only about 30 percent interchangeablity. Even the tranmission is different, and the engine (which is ostensibly the same) appears to have changes to it. You would clearly know more about that than I. On the other hand, I still think Challenger1 could be good start as far as an external 3d model is concerned. I did get some pretty good imagery of the privately owned C1 at Beltring about 4 years ago, which appears to have been a testbed for C2, and includes the transmission of the latter apparently.

RE FV432, I did give Esim a precis on that for the Mk1. That was a first effort and I think it could stand revision. Frankly I think a Mk2 would be a better idea. That seems to be the main version still in service (I assume the Mk1 started to be reduced in 94?) and would appear to be the basis of the Bulldog. I didnt have a Mk2 manual when I did it (I do now) so clearly it could do with revision.

well the that is relatively new add-on armour, i know of the ERA armour that was applied to the Chall1/2 but the other stuff has been made by vickers and BAE landsystems in the early years of the naughties (00's). but ill see what i can do.

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"Charlie Charlie one this is pot calling kettle black over" "Pot this is kettle black send, over"

Stalintc,having just read post #302 in the 'ARRC TRAINING DAY' forum,dont you think you might me a bit wiser in using the phrase 'pot calling the kettle black'.

Remind me what the phrase 'throwing stones in a greenhouse' means.

Also,all apologies required on that spat,including mine to the appropriate members have been made,so what business is it of yours to stick your nose in?

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well the that is relatively new add-on armour, i know of the ERA armour that was applied to the Chall1/2 but the other stuff has been made by vickers and BAE landsystems in the early years of the naughties (00's). but ill see what i can do.

That would fit. The Challenger2s that went to Kosovo and Bosnia had what looked like a near standard Challenger1 armour pack fitted (they were missing the uparmour plate that fitted on the upper hull glacis. I assume thats so they could see better on the crap roads). They had the Toe ERA pack though. By 2003 the side armour pack was modified (or it was perhaps new ones as you say, perhaps with a different armour package), not only did they then get the mounting points for the skirts, but the first armour plate on either side had a new chunk of armour fitted onto it (similar to those latterly fitted to the turret) which to my eye looked like it was over the charge bins by the side of the driver. Im sure they approved!!

Incidentally, a thread on Tanknet shows some good shots of the new Toe armour pack.

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Stalintc,having just read post #302 in the 'ARRC TRAINING DAY' forum,dont you think you might me a bit wiser in using the phrase 'pot calling the kettle black'.

Remind me what the phrase 'throwing stones in a greenhouse' means.

Also,all apologies required on that spat,including mine to the appropriate members have been made,so what business is it of yours to stick your nose in?

#302 was a reaction in defence to a personal attack... your point is exactly?

It has absolutley no bearing on this what so ever.

My post here was a sarcastic quip to you as a prompt that perhaps you are being a little hypocritical. Its not my fault that you decided to chew on a wasp about it.

On a public forum anyone has the right to add to a thread, including yourself. just by reading someones thread you are *sticking your nose in* because its public.

On that note, im dropping any further response to you regarding this, as I would like to see this thread continue as there are many interesting things to read here.

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Chally1-RoyalHussars-GWar.jpg

chally 1 with uparmour package.

i'll get to modeling this one in maybe 1/2 a year to a year.

dont get too excited though. even with a finished model, its still going to be years before theres time to add new vehicles. and then theres at least 14 other vehicles thats been waiting to be implemented since 2003-04, along with a playable T-72.

i tried using the drawings in the osprey challenger 1 book, and they sucked donkey balls.

not accurate worth shit. none of the lines fitted, and i had to average every single angle between the pictures, and scale the pictures according to real life measures. additionally, the gun tube was about 12cm too high, so it was clipping through the top metal sheet above the gun.

i bought a plastic model of the chally, which i'll do some 3d adjusting to according to some websites, basically using its measures to create a 3d model.

although i'm more inclined towards dragging my laptop along on a summer trip to bovington and spend a week with a chally1 in the museum, taking measures and pictures.

and if one gets implemented, expect to see it as AI for quite a while.

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Yes, there isnt much in the way of really good drawings of Challenger1. Ive also noted distortions in the osprey book. There are some in Military modelling magazine that were quite good, so try the model maker forums. They frequently hold onto things like this. Did you have a look at the photos I sent Nils? There was at least one I took of a side on view of the vehicle that might just prove useable, though I suppose a lens can possibly distort the image.

I know the Tank Museum has invested quite a lot in developing plan packs, and some of them cover some pretty rare machines indeed. Its probably worth contacting them and asking how much it would cost for a plan pack on Challenger1. its inconceivable in my mind they wont cover it, and I get the impression that as the service is intended for modellers, the price wont be prohibitive.

To be honest Im not playing SB anymore, so really this is only of academic interest to myself, much as I would like to see the army use it as a training system. But I like your work, and I would object to a render when you are done so I can use it as wallpaper on my laptop. :)

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Roger that homer.

Well i have new up-armour images of the Blocks bolted to the hull, turret front and sides. i dont think ive seen these before they must be fairly new. Ive seen the "rack"armour they use on the warriors, Challenger 2s, land rovers and scimitars in Iraq. but this armour ive never seen this armour before, must be an avis upgrade of the ERA armour that needed replacing.

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Yes, there isnt much in the way of really good drawings of Challenger1. Ive also noted distortions in the osprey book. There are some in Military modelling magazine that were quite good, so try the model maker forums. They frequently hold onto things like this. Did you have a look at the photos I sent Nils? There was at least one I took of a side on view of the vehicle that might just prove useable, though I suppose a lens can possibly distort the image.

I know the Tank Museum has invested quite a lot in developing plan packs, and some of them cover some pretty rare machines indeed. Its probably worth contacting them and asking how much it would cost for a plan pack on Challenger1. its inconceivable in my mind they wont cover it, and I get the impression that as the service is intended for modellers, the price wont be prohibitive.

To be honest Im not playing SB anymore, so really this is only of academic interest to myself, much as I would like to see the army use it as a training system. But I like your work, and I would object to a render when you are done so I can use it as wallpaper on my laptop. :)

photographs invariably add perspective, which yes, distorts the image.

to make it worse, each camera distorts the image in its own way. i need orthographic drawings.

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