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Why doesn't this T80 die


oblivious
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Hi,

I used to be an SB1 player, finally caved in and bought PE last week.

Enjoying it, bit suprised that it seems more buggy than SB1.

Anyways, while enjoying me coffee i thought i'd practise a bit and during this mission ran into a T80, distance 700 and pumped a load of DM33s into it, the thing does not die...

Eventually i move forward to see if it's still in shape to respond to me and wadda ya know...the turret turns and kaboom.

The replay can be downloaded here for those interested.

It's right at the end of the replay.

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I can tell you without even looking at the replay why it didn't die. T-80s have ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor), which makes them tough targets, especially for someone with ammo that's not the best. However, there are weak points at the driver's hatch and around the gun itself that can be targeted. And of course, the best way to kill any tank is to hit it in the side or rear.:biggrin:

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Hello Oblivious and welcome.

As for your question, I think I can help:

*The first shot is a very nice hit into the turret ring which causes heavy damage and crew casualties.

*The second shot is on the turret front, through the ERA as well (it appears) and at an oblique angle. Needless to say, DM33 is not going to penetrate in this situation.

*The third shot appears to be along the length of the turret side so it does not penetrate (you can see that the hit ray stops).

*The fourth - sixth shot *should* have caused an ammo explosion at a casual glance, but (without getting into too much detail) a small problem was noticed recently and fixed which has a chance of keeping an ammo explosion from happening on that left front side. However, it is difficult to say whether the "now corrected problem" is what is having an effect here, or if those oblique shots with DM33 through both the heavy front skirt and hull side are such that the DM33's post penetration power is reduced so much that it does not have sufficient energy remaining to get a high % kill (your angle of impact significantly increases the thickness of the armor).

Either way, I would recommend that you give the Leo2A4 something a little better than DM33 if you are planning on getting oblique frontal kills on the T-80, or, at the very least, try to shoot the tank in the flank (90* -- not oblique) and rear. I am sure that DM53 would probably be sufficient at that angle, but you don't really need DM53 to fight the T-80 either. The interesting thing is that it looks like after the first hit you pretty much disabled the tank (its turret is no longer moving). You probably should have relocated to a better position for the easy kill, rather then just pump five more rounds into it from the oblique. :shocked:

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Sometimes, life just sucks.

You can find out what damage you caused the T-80 by looking in the "Reports" folder for an HTML file which should have the same name as the scenario you ran, with the time you ran it. You'll be able to see each event with a number of different systems to the far right of the spreadsheet. Anything with an "X" in it was damaged.

Might give you some comfort. :)

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This brings up one old question for me:

Why is it possible to still man the commanders place when the commander got killed?

Like it is, there are no reasons to close hatch or be carefull even under small arms fire.

If you want you can alsways fight in the Wittmanns position. Imho positions from dead crew-man should not be playable anymore.

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This brings up one old question for me:

Why is it possible to still man the commanders place when the commander got killed?

Like it is, there are no reasons to close hatch or be carefull even under small arms fire.

If you want you can alsways fight in the Wittmanns position. Imho positions from dead crew-man should not be playable anymore.

Didn't you notice that your gunner wasn't reactive when you were in the dead commander's place?

I mean, when your commander is dead or disabled, your gunner can be a place holder, but conquently, you won't have a gunner when you're in the TC's seat.

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IIRC it has something to do with MP sessions. Otherwise "dead" players would automatically jump into someone's vehiclce, which isn't always welcome by the owner of the new vehicle.

Yes, the most important thing that happens is, you no longer get the AI TC spotting / situational awareness (SA) once the commander is disabled. Everyone loves to hate the AI TC at times (although he is not as bad as he used to be), but the AI TC can definitely be useful in giving you the drop on someone and increasing your SA.

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That might be the way it looks for the guys who plays as gunner most of the times.

I mostly play as commander and the only thing which happens is that the commander gets killed and IIRC i still can man the commanders place without noticing anything about the killed commander. Even the gunner does his job and the driver doesnt climb out into the turret...

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That might be the way it looks for the guys who plays as gunner most of the times.

I mostly play as commander and the only thing which happens is that the commander gets killed and IIRC i still can man the commanders place without noticing anything about the killed commander. Even the gunner does his job and the driver doesnt climb out into the turret...

That is not true. Go into the scenario editor and damage the "Commander", then run the scenario and test it. The gunner does NOT perform his duties normally when you are in the commander's position, because the gunner moves to the commander position, which is the person / entity you are controlling. Try telling the "gunner" to traverse left / right when sitting in the commander's position in this case and you will see that nothing happens. When you switch to the gunner's position then you are understood to be the same entity, physically moving to the gunner's seat. On the other hand, if you jump out of the tank to the external view or to another tank, then the gunner will move back to the gunner's position and perform as such.

In other words, in this case, when occupying the Commander position with a disabled Commander, the turret will not move on its own since there is no gunner. When you move to the gunner's position then you will not have AI TC situational awareness, because there is no commander. So I am not sure exactly what you think you have seen going on, but the way you describe it does not occur (unless some bug was involved). The basic premise is, as a human inside a vehicle you ARE occupying one of the non-disabled crew entities while you are in it which, in this case, happens to be the gunner which is physically moving to the TC's position. So, although it may appear that since you can still occupy the Gunner / Commander positions with disabled crew members, it certainly does not come without any side effect.

Regardless, the ideal design approach would be to have a "crew management" screen where the TC can assign the crew to certain positions of the commander's desire, that way he could tell a specific crew member to move to man a position of his choice which might be a different preference depending on both the situation and the individual commander. The disabled driver position comes to mind which has been explained already. But, it is what it is for now.

Additional: Criticism and questions are welcome, but do please try to investigate a bit more before doing either one.

Edited by Volcano
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