Skybird03 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I wonder what "moderate losses" are.I realised that platoons do not seem to embark on routes when being in a BP with "defend" tactics. I then ran some tests.---One tank (me), and in front of me an own force 3 tank platoon, in defend-BP, so that there is a BP line on the map, and attached is a Retreat-route, unconditioned.Expected is that when killing one tank, the other would pop smoke, and start moving in reverse, at least that if I kill two tanks, the last survivor would move.In fact the tanks stay in place all the time, until the last one has been killed.-- I then changed the tactics to "guard", left everything else the same.expected is that the units start to pop smoke and move back in retreat once they get hit by fire, even if no losses have been suffered.And so they do.---I then gave defend orders, but used a 4 tank platoon instead of three.expected is that if moderate losses (one tank killed) get suffered, the unit starts moving.It did not move after the first, second and third tank killed.---I then replaced the tanks with BMP-2 (own side), to see how the simulation handles vehicles and soldiers to calculate what a moderate loss to a platoon is.4 BMPs with guard orders immediately started to move after popping smoke after one of them even was just touched by a shot which did not kill it, but immobilised it. The other three got out. Infantry never was outside the vehicles.---I then had 3 BMPs with defend orders. The infantry left the vehicles, and lined up with them. i then killed the first BMP, and they all did nothing. I killed the second, no reaciton. And the third BMP destroyed, then killing individual infantry. they never embarked on that retreat route, neither vehicles nor infantry.---It seems to me the defend-tactic at BPs is broken!? It is not different to Hold tactics. Both are defend to the last man. However, the guard-tactic is not sufficient if you want a unit to fight in a place and retreating if getting weakened - because they may fight as long as the enemy does nor return fire, but as soon as he does, he immediately move back, even if the fire is of a callibre that is relatively harmless (MG).---what I have not tried now is different route tactics, the attached routes all were retreat-routes, without conditions. I just chnaged the BP tactics.I noticed it by chance when testplaying a scenario I am designing, and realising that none of the red forces with defend-BPs embarked on the attached retreat routes when suffering losses. With incoming artillery, they manouvered to avoid the strike, then returned to the original location. With artillery killing one or two vehicles, the survivors still did not embark. I then ran the tests in scenario editor, without any map loaded, with Leo-1DK, Leo2A3, Leo1AS and BMP2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted November 2, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2009 "Moderate losses" is not losing one tank, if I am not mistake it is the loss of > 1/2 the unit's strength. See if they retreat after the three tank platoon loses two vehicles, or after the four tank platoon loses two to three. Or did I miss that you tried that already? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted November 2, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2009 Actually, you might be right about them not embarking on a route (I am looking at it now). I guess the question too is, how long does it take them to embark on said route. As it is though, it does look like something might not be working properly with the Defend tactic, I will look at it a bit more... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted November 2, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2009 To follow up:Yes it appears that the Defend tactic is not functioning as it should. We will look into it. Thanks for the info. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Yes it appears that the Defend tactic is not functioning as it should. Hmm, that would be most unfortunate.Hope this vital function can be fixed asap.Rgds, Koen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybird03 Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 I have tested with 5 vehicle platoons meanwhile. Even with 4 killed, the unit does not disembark from defend BPs.When you guys are already at fixing it, I would recommend to check that "moderate losses" criterion as well. I cannot help it, but a unit disembarking on an escape route after the greater part of it already got killed, feels just not right. That's in no way just "moderate" losses, isn't it. Consider that most scenarios feature Russian tank platoons as opponents, with three tanks. When you want them to retreat, it is only one single tank getting out and moving to a new BP, eventually. On the other hand, "guard" means the unit starts moving just becasue a 9mm projectile hit a tank's frontal armour and not even a scratch in the painting, not too mention no losses or even just damages suffered. We need an ambrak condtion that fills the middle between the two extremes "guard" and "hol" in a better way. Just 1 vhicle of a platoon embarking is too muczh like "hold", even more when considering that there is a good chance that it gets killed in the escape as well.I would recommend to make moderate losses 1 loss in case of 3-vehicle-platoons, and 2 vehicles with 4-vehicle platoons. If the criterion is "more than half of them", it means that even 4-vehicle platoons need to loose 3 vehicles before embarking on the route. You can save yourself from giving them any alternative BP or escape route at all, then.Unfortunately the broken defend- BP is a real biggy. If ever possible I would recommend a hotfix, even if difficult to realise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybird03 Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 "Moderate losses" is not losing one tank, if I am not mistake it is the loss of > 1/2 the unit's strength. See if they retreat after the three tank platoon loses two vehicles, or after the four tank platoon loses two to three. Or did I miss that you tried that already?yes, you missed it, I already described that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted November 2, 2009 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2009 Unfortunately the broken defend- BP is a real biggy. If ever possible I would recommend a hotfix, even if difficult to realise. Well, again, everyone has their own "real biggy" bugs that they think should require a hot fix. The reality is, hot fixes are not as easy as you think. But rest assured that it will be fixed as soon as it can. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted November 2, 2009 Members Share Posted November 2, 2009 The condition is supposed to be the first vehicle that gets killed, no matter how many cars the platoon has, not a certain percentage (and 50% isn't moderate, it's darn high. Infantry units are usually rendered combat ineffective at 60% losses, even though that's not as dramatic for armored units which can sustain higher losses without necessarily losing their abiloity to continue the fight). Be that as it may be, the behavior itself is broken, no matter what the actual threshold is or should be. That needs to be addressed. In the meantime I recommend creating embark conditions for the bug-out route, e.g. if unit (this) is under (direct) fire combined with a 20 seconds delay or so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybird03 Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 Well, again, everyone has their own "real biggy" bugs that they think should require a hot fix. The reality is, hot fixes are not as easy as you think. I am aware of the problem. A biggy it is in so far as all already existing scenarios that make intentional design use of the implicit embark condition now have handicaps. How severe depends on the scenario in question, but a design that depends on units withdrawing into new BPs if suffering losses in the firsat and the designer not having used the route condition for checking the unit strength versus a set value, are broken. I am not in full awareness how many such scenarios there are like this - but I am very well aware that most scenarios I have designed for my own private use (not for release) are making significant use of this. A biggy it is not in that if people are aware of the porblem, they can evade the broken defend-conditionof BPs by using conditioned routes featuring a comparison of unit strength versus the desired value during the mission designing and planning ("this unit embark on route if strength < 3" ). I t does not work during mission play, though - there you would need to use the defend-BP with attached retreat route to achieve this effect. Not so much telling this to Volcano - who knows all this - but to everybody new to SBP and wondering what the hell we are talking about and how to work around the problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybird03 Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 The condition is supposed to be the first vehicle that gets killed, no matter how many cars the platoon has, not a certain percentage (and 50% isn't moderate, it's darn high. Infantry units are usually rendered combat ineffective at 60% losses, even though that's not as dramatic for armored units which can sustain higher losses without necessarily losing their abiloity to continue the fight). Be that as it may be, the behavior itself is broken, no matter what the actual threshold is or should be. That needs to be addressed. In the meantime I recommend creating embark conditions for the bug-out route, e.g. if unit (this) is under (direct) fire combined with a 20 seconds delay or so. That would be more like the "guard" BP condition", almost, and that one works well and needs no work around, so use it with confidence. To work around the "defend" BP, see one post above. I have checked it and it works.But good to hear about the moderate losses value. That "1 vehicle killed" criterion is right how I think it should be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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