Battle Taxi?

[Sabot_Up]

I'm a bit confused on how to employ the M113 and Bradley in the offensive troop carrier role. Troops are good at close range, but a platoon of M113s generally gets pounded before it gets anywhere near close enough for the bazookas and 'Gustavs' to do their stuff.

The same goes for how to use the Bradley as an infantry carrier. I have been able to use it with some effectiveness to counter BMPs where no Abrams are available, but other than that my Bradleys tend to take a licking.

I don't have Pro PE (yet... we'll see next Christmas) so this is all for the fully patched SB1. So keep in mind that I can't actually play the M113 and Bradley, all I have is the F8 view.

[ShotMagnet]

Employing the M-113 (or Gavin, just to give someone a conniption) in SB:G is radically different compared to SBPRoPE.

In the former, the vehicle does what the AI tells it to, in the latter you can run it and gun it. Makes a big difference, especially when you're hammering away with the Ma Deuce.

In either case, some basic rules should apply. First, never send them in unsupported. Either prep the area they'll be going to with artillery, or let the MBTs work over what opposition is there. Stun, disrupt, or otherwise befuddle the bad guys, before you send in the APCs. Smoke can help you out here, too.

Second, never leave the infantry's collective cheese out in the wind. They're there to support the panzers, and to keep enemy dismounts at arms' length. They'll also do a good job of bird-dogging enemy units. They're not supposed to lead the charge; tanks were invented to do that, and the panzers should be rolling abreast of the infantry (or even a little ahead of the infantry) if there's a position to be overrun. They won't live long without adequate support; again, that's why you have tanks.

Third, they should be mobile. The APCs that brought them to the party should be able to pick them up and carry them somwhere else in a hurry. The battle's flowing all around them, they should be able to keep up and help out. The tanks, after all, need them as much as they need the tanks.

Shot

[Sabot_Up]

Thanks. I'll try your suggestions.

[Floydii]

Try dismounting in cover so the infantry can move forward and suppress the RPG gunners while the APC's move up in fire support, or push forward in line with troops after the dismounts have got the enemy's attention. Ideally you don't want to attack an equally equipped force which is more than 1/3 your size (you won't be able to suppress all the RPG's effectively).

If you HAVE to fight something bigger and meaner than you (T72/80) drag them into your dismounts RPG range. You'll probably take some casualties, but the enemy will take multiple RPG hits from multiple directions (provided you spread out from the dismount pattern). TOW sniping in SB Gold is not the best option unless the enemy is distracted IIRC.

Best option as always- Carpark the enemy defensive position with Arty, then roll in to clean up. Dull to watch, but effective.

[HotTom]

Employing the M-113 (or Gavin, just to give someone a conniption) in SB:G is radically different compared to SBPRoPE.

In the former, the vehicle does what the AI tells it to, in the latter you can run it and gun it. Makes a big difference, especially when you're hammering away with the Ma Deuce.

In either case, some basic rules should apply. First, never send them in unsupported. Either prep the area they'll be going to with artillery, or let the MBTs work over what opposition is there. Stun, disrupt, or otherwise befuddle the bad guys, before you send in the APCs. Smoke can help you out here, too.

Second, never leave the infantry's collective cheese out in the wind. They're there to support the panzers, and to keep enemy dismounts at arms' length. They'll also do a good job of bird-dogging enemy units. They're not supposed to lead the charge; tanks were invented to do that, and the panzers should be rolling abreast of the infantry (or even a little ahead of the infantry) if there's a position to be overrun. They won't live long without adequate support; again, that's why you have tanks.

Third, they should be mobile. The APCs that brought them to the party should be able to pick them up and carry them somwhere else in a hurry. The battle's flowing all around them, they should be able to keep up and help out. The tanks, after all, need them as much as they need the tanks.

Shot

Whoa there, Colonel Custer!

The infantry isn't there to "support the panzers." The tanks are there to support the infantry. Boots on ground win battles, not tracks on ground.

I agree the tanks and artillery (and the APCs' guns) should suppress enemy fires but if you lead with your tanks, you'll have a lot of dead tanks and a lot of unsupported infantry.

In a combined arms (tanks and infantry) assault, the tanks and APCs have specific and separate target priorities. The net effect is that every possible threat location receives fire during the attack.

And make max use of artillery. We don't have mortars or close air support in SB, which is a real shame. But (unless you're playing Marine Corps ) pound them before you attack.

Drop off your infantry so they have a covered route to the objective. Then get your tanks and APCs in support by fire (SBF) positions on the high ground (key terrain) and let them provide covering fire.

Quite often, you'll have to breach obstacles (as in mine fields) in front of a prepared defensive position. So you'll need a security team to protect the breach, a breaching team and an assault team. It's not just a matter of rolling up to the enemy line and dismounting.

There is no such term in the manuals as a "charge." About the only time your tanks should lead is in a pursuit, not an attack.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-71/index.html

and

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/71-1/index.html

and

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/71-123/index.html

RTFM (especially you Air Force vets ).

HT

[IrishHussar]

Whoa there, Colonel Custer!

The infantry isn't there to "support the panzers." The tanks are there to support the infantry. Boots on ground win battles, not tracks on ground

There is no such term in the manuals as a "charge." About the only time your tanks should lead is in a pursuit, not an attack.

HT

How about when advancing to contact? Are you saying IFVs should lead with the MBTs to the rear??

Irish

[HotTom]

How about when advancing to contact? Are you saying IFVs should lead with the MBTs to the rear??

Irish

I would say it depends on the terrain. Depends on how much recon knows about the enemy. Depends on what type of enemy force you expect to encounter.

And that OCOKA and METT-T stuff.

Personally, I am an advocate of recon my fire, so, I suppose that means the artillery actually leads

The thing about tanks, as I'm sure you are aware, is they are "bullet magnets." More than providing fire support, they tend to distract the bad guys who will ignore the grunts to get a shot at that big ugly machine

In woods or certainly in urban areas, the infantry leads on foot. Open terrain, it's overwatch with IFVs always moving on the most secure route and tanks in overwatch positions.

If you're just moving forward blindly, I'd put the IFVs in the back but the foot soldiers out in front looking for RPG and ATGM teams.

In any case, the cav (recce to you UK and Commonwealth types) is out front with recon patrols. The theory is they'll flush whatever is hiding out there.

The quote in your signature, by the way, is an old artillery saying, not cavalry and it's variously attributed to Napolean and/or Frederick the Great, neither of whom, if memory serves, were British

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Artillery

HT

[IrishHussar]

I would say it depends on the terrain. Depends on how much recon knows about the enemy. Depends on what type of enemy force you expect to encounter.

And that OCOKA and METT-T stuff.

1. Personally, I am an advocate of recon my fire, so, I suppose that means the artillery actually leads

2. The thing about tanks, as I'm sure you are aware, is they are "bullet magnets." More than providing fire support, they tend to distract the bad guys who will ignore the grunts to get a shot at that big ugly machine

In woods or certainly in urban areas, the infantry leads on foot. Open terrain, it's overwatch with IFVs always moving on the most secure route and tanks in overwatch positions.

3. If you're just moving forward blindly, I'd put the IFVs in the back but the foot soldiers out in front looking for RPG and ATGM teams.

In any case, the cav (recce to you UK and Commonwealth types) is out front with recon patrols. The theory is they'll flush whatever is hiding out there.

The quote in your signature, by the way, is an old artillery saying, not cavalry and it's variously attributed to Napolean and/or Frederick the Great, neither of whom, if memory serves, were British

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Artillery

HT

TOM

Ive numbered your quotes 1-3 reasons why I think you are trolling and not trying to have an intelligent discussion. I must say you nearly caught me.

out Irish

[HotTom]

Irish, you lost me with that. My post certainly wasn't intended as a troll and I'm puzzled why you think so. I thought I was answering your question about movement to contact. Sri if you feel otherwise but it was intended as a serious reply.

Here's the textbook answer. It says nothing about tanks leading. In fact, in one type of operation it specifies light forces supported by heavy forces:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-90/ch4.htm

And it emphasizes that the organization and tactics of a covering force and/or an advance guard in an MTC (what would we do without acronyms?) is dependent on METT-TC (I mentioned METT-T and dated myself; they through in the C for civilians in since I retired ).

The trick is to find the enemy with a mobile force working in advance of the main body. I don't think I contradicted that.

:cvcsalut:

HT

[Sabot_Up]

In woods or certainly in urban areas, the infantry leads on foot. Open terrain, it's overwatch with IFVs always moving on the most secure route and tanks in overwatch positions.

I read what you said earlier, but it took getting a spanking from the Soviets to really learn it.

What I've learned: Keep the enemy tanks pinned down with your own tanks from hull-down positions, then throw your PCs to the flanks (at top speed) and dismount well within Bazooka / Gustav range.

[HotTom]

Yes, attacking is one option.

And in US doctrine, the tanks provide support by fire from defilade positions while the infantry maneuvers on the objective, first in IFVs and then on foot. (I was chatting with Irish on Teamspeak about this -- much more effective than a forum -- and he says the tanks roll right up on the objective with the infantry in UK doctrine). So there are several ways to skin the cat.

But there are other solutions when finding the enemy during a movement to contact including bypassing and establishing a defensive postion.

The advance guard in a movement to contact has two of the 4-Fs to accomplish: Find the Enemy and Fix the Enemy. Whether the advance guard Fights the Enemy and Finishes the Enemy depends on whether the security force has enough combat power capable of doing so. Remember this is a small mobile force out in front.

The important part is once you've found the enemy you have to pin him down (fix him). DO NOT lose contact once it has been achieved. But you may have to wait for help from the main body behind you to actually fight him. Or you may move on (bypass) after handing the enemy force off to a unit coming up behind you.

Here's the "school solution" from FM 3-90:

"Execute Selected Course of Action

"4-48. The security force commander should determine quickly whether to bypass the enemy or attack. The security force attacks (see Chapter 5) if it has sufficient, immediately available combat power to overwhelm the enemy and the attack will not detract from mission accomplishment. Such attacks are usually necessary to overcome enemy attempts to slow the movement of the security force. If this initial attack fails to defeat enemy defenses, the security force commander must consider other options, such as making a more deliberate attack or assuming the defense while continuing to find out as much as possible about the enemy's positions.

"4-49. The security force may bypass the enemy if it does not have sufficient combat power or an attack would jeopardize mission accomplishment. It must request permission to bypass an enemy force unless the operations order provides bypass criteria. The security force commander must report bypassed enemy forces to the next higher headquarters, which then assumes responsibility for their destruction or containment. Alternatively, the security force could keep a minimum force in contact with the bypassed enemy so that he cannot move freely around the battlefield. (See Appendix B for a discussion of bypass as a tactical task.)

"4-50. If the security force cannot conduct either a hasty attack or a bypass, it attempts to establish a defense (see Chapter 8). In the defense, the security force maintains enemy contact, continues to perform reconnaissance, and prepares to support other forces. When the security force commander decides to defend, responsibility for further action rests with his higher commander. In the event other COAs would lead to decisive engagements or destruction, the security force conducts those activities necessary to assure self-preservation, such as delay or withdrawal (see Chapter 11), but maintains enemy contact unless the higher commander orders otherwise."

This is kind of wandering away from the original question -- what do you do with your PCs in an assault?

I think the simple answer is if you have 113s they can provide minimal cover fire with their .50. Best to dismount the troops in a covered area and go hide the 113 out of harm's way. Their armor is pretty pathetic.

But a Bradley was designed to provide significant covering fire and has enough armor to find a good hull down position and engage targets on the objective.

LAVs fall somewhere in the middle. They have the cannon for fire support but lack the armor for protection (I was involved in testing them years ago and thought they were too delicate).

I can't speak to the Stryker, but we don't have those anyway

In any case, it's not wise to roll the PCs right up on the enemy position because they likely won't get that far with an RPG taking them out far short of the objective.

The simple solution for you is to buy SB Pro immediately. The infantry still has some serious limitations. But you do most of this stuff in a doctrinally correct way.

Then you can experiment

HT

[Sabot_Up]

Yes, attacking is one option.

This is kind of wandering away from the original question -- what do you do with your PCs in an assault?

I think the simple answer is if you have 113s they can provide minimal cover fire with their .50. Best to dismount the troops in a covered area and go hide the 113 out of harm's way. Their armor is pretty pathetic.

But a Bradley was designed to provide significant covering fire and has enough armor to find a good hull down position and engage targets on the objective.

Please do wander from the original question, as long as you continue talking about the employment of PCs.

Maybe Pro PE is different (does it have a newer Bradley modeled?) but in SB1 the Bradley is pretty vulnerable, though obviously not as much as the 113. In a good hull-down position the TOW is pretty useful, but they tend to get destroyed before the M1s.

The simple solution for you is to buy SB Pro immediately. The infantry still has some serious limitations. But you do most of this stuff in a doctrinally correct way.

Then you can experiment

Pro PE is #1 on my list of stuff to get if I have the money... but I probably need to upgrade my computer first, so I'll probably have to wait a year (next Christmas).

[HotTom]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-7j/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-71/index.html

These two FMs have the same title and both deal with the Bradley platoon and squad. One is much newer than the other but I'm not sure whether it superceded the earlier one because there is a difference in the topics they cover.

In any case: RTFM(s)

HT

[ShotMagnet]

You won't regret it. The ability to control your PC past simply 'drive here' is well worth the cost.

Having great fun with 1stVUS Cav, we do a lot of stuff in Brads, stuff that I'd always wanted to do in SB:G.

Shot

[HotTom]

You won't regret it. The ability to control your PC past simply 'drive here' is well worth the cost.

Having great fun with 1stVUS Cav, we do a lot of stuff in Brads, stuff that I'd always wanted to do in SB:G.

Shot

You do NOT want to hear my opinion of the 1stVUSCAV...at least not in a public forum.....

Glad you are enjoying it though....

HT

[enigma6584]

You do NOT want to hear my opinion of the 1stVUSCAV...at least not in a public forum.....

HT

Or for that matter the opinion of members of the 1stUSCAV regarding you.

[Cutter]

Hell yeah......lets have a good fight here :biggrin:

[ShotMagnet]

Let's not. This is about how to use APCs, and should remain about how to use PCs.

Shot

[Wahrborg]

Can we have a big fight, and then the forum admin delete all the bad-mouthing after we tossed this effing troll out of the community like the garbage he is? pretty please? *sad puppy eyes*

[LtGeorge]

Using PCs depends largely on what you intend to take, and what you know to be up against, so the key is to be flexible. The problem is that if your PCs get into a dangerous area, you could lose several before the situation is rectified. Likewise, an infantry squad scouting forward could be wiped out when it discovers what is ahead if you don't react quickly. Also, SB has its own "reality" on how mechanized forces mix it up which makes FMs a hit and miss piece of advice.

The basic rule of thumb is that Bradleys and CV90s can't deal with tanks - even thought the Bradley has TOWs. Hostile tanks in SB can engage faster and with more deadlier force, whether attacking or defending. Against anything else, the PC can take a more dominant role, usually to provide cover fire for its own infantry that advance ahead. Better for the infantry to stay ahead and keep ATGMs and RPGs down while the PC suppresses everything else. However, there are always exceptions...

[ShotMagnet]

A lot will depend on the routing and other behavior you give to the infantry doing the screening. Tonight 1st Cav had another practice and yours truly was in command of an M2 platoon. I dismounted the infantry and sent them out ahead to go and listen for the enemy; they took up listening station and were given Hold Fire for fire control.

Sure enough, the bad guys showed up and this is where the HF thing paid off. My dismounts saw a PC, which didn't see them until I stood them up. They were right on top of the PC; they let fly with an RPG, and bagged it.

OK, that won't happen every time, but you can see where it might be useful.

Shot

[Hedgehog]

The thing with PCs is in order to kill anything bigger and badder, you need to hide them, and hit the tanks up the arse, preferably from point blank.

[CharlieB]

Rule of thumb:

Open country - Tanks lead Inf follow

FIWAF or FIBUA (FISH and DISH) - Inf lead and Tanks follow.

FIBAR - Inf start and Tanks help out!

[Wahrborg]

Rule of thumb:

Open country - Tanks lead Inf follow

FIWAF or FIBUA (FISH and DISH) - Inf lead and Tanks follow.

FIBAR - Inf start and Tanks help out!

FUBAR - tanks didnt show up?

[DemolitionMan]

Well we have some threads about the employment of APCs and IFVs but I use this one here to link to this most interesting German WW2 training film on the use of Panzergrenadiere:

Part1: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=WjyJCQa5sac

2: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=nuXXrvqoEPQ

3: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xEvw3ByC4

4: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=LMCaZ5VAkoI