Problem with AI gunners

[Jester_UK]

I've noticed that once ammo type has been changed (either by selecting HEAT or changing to the co-ax), the AI gunner will no longer fire (sometimes repeatedly reporting "On the way" but never firing even on a target well within range).

Whilst this can be worked around by swapping to the gunners seat in a human controlled vehicle, I can't find a way to get around it with an fully AI controlled vehicle.

Is this a known issue? And is there a way to fix it?

Edit: Running 2.538. Clean install (no older version of SB ProPE has ever even been installed on this PC).

[Ssnake]

Can you give examples of the vehicles where you observed this ... and the ammunition type, eventually?

[Jester_UK]

I've seen it when in the TC's seat of an STRV 122. ordered the AI gunner to fire on a bunker after he had reported troops and changed ammo type to HEAT (the default ammo type for the STRV 122). Gunner reported "On the way" but never fired. Whether the AI gunner would have engaged another vehicle at a later stage I don't know since I never got a chance to find out in that case.

I saw it tonight with a fully AI (owner = computer) M1A1(HA).... Again, the ammo loadout/munition types were not changed from default loadout.

I added a platoon of M1A1's to a scenario I'm working on to test it to date. I was just following the lead vehicle in observer mode. The vehicle enged a couple of T-72's successfully with SABOT, then the TC spotted an infantry team. It swapped to the co-ax )ammo type at the top of the screen changed to 7.62). Gunner reported "Identified" followed by "on the way" but never fired. Just kept repeating "on the way." The tank was stationary at the time and stayed that way.

I ran that test three times. Second time showed the same issue (which was why I posted the question), but the third time seemed to run fine. I'm not aware of changing anything in the mission that would change the AI's behaviour in regard to this (only adjusted some obsticles and minefield borders..... The tanks were nowhere near the minefield when the problem showed up BTW).

Seems like a strange one as it doesn't appear to be consistant. Hope the info is of some use.

[Volcano]

Was there some trees near the target? If so, the AI (usually) won't waste all of its ammo firing at it and it will wait until the trees are out of the way first (with HEAT). In any case, the only real way we can see what you are seeing is if you can recreate it in a test scenario with as few units as possible.

[Jester_UK]

There were trees nearby in both cases, but could that alone explain why a fully AI vehicle stopped and the gunner went into this weird "on the way" loop?

If I get a scenario that causes this again on a consistant basis, I'll send you a copy.

[Volcano]

Actually, no need for a test scenario. Since there are trees around it as you say, then that is indeed what is happening (what I stated above). Here is how the AI decision cycle / algorithm on firing works:

1) TC locates target and gives verbal warning

2) TC puts turret on target (or talks gunner to target)

3) Gunner acquires target

4) Gunner says "Identified"

5) TC tells gunner to fire (vehicle basically checks the fire control rules)

6) Gunner says "On the way"

7) Before gunner fires, he checks to see if he can actually hit the target

8) If gunner can hit target, AI fires a round

....so, if gunner is using HEAT or ATGM and if there is a tree near the target, then it will cycle through the #7 and #6 (and possibly the #5) points in the sequence. Now, I admit that it seems to make more sense to swap #6 with #7 so that he only says OTW when he can and is indeed actually firing, but then that will cause another problem of people complaining that the gunner doesn't do anything at all, he just stares silently at the target that he cannot engage. So, the current method is probably the best to at least provide feedback that the AI is attempting to fire and it will probably not change.

We should probably add another gunner verbal command saying to the effect that the target is obscured, if he does not shoot. But this is low on the priority list at the moment.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Volcano

[Jester_UK]

Thanks for the explanation Volcano.

I tried a test on the flat.ter map yesterday by setting up a single STRV 122 and a few OPFOR tanks, PC's and troops all set to blind. and sure enough the AI engaged all effectively.

Another gunner voice cue (and/or TC's voice cue) would be an excellent addition....... Also, would an automated routine that causes an AI vehicle to resume it's route after x ammount of time if unable to engage a target be feasible?

[Gibsonm]

We should probably add another gunner verbal command saying to the effect that the target is obscured, if he does not shoot. But this is low on the priority list at the moment.

I don't recall the US response but we use "Not Observed".

Which is normally followed by a stream of abuse from the Commander with tends to start with "What do you mean you can't see the #$%!#$^! #$^!%^@$%& !#^%@$%&@$& thing? Its right #$@#% #$^!#^! !#^!#%^!% !#^!#^ there!", etc.

[Jester_UK]

Well if every other word doesn't start with an "F" it's not proper military terminology!! :biggrin:

[Volcano]

I don't recall the US response but we use "Not Observed".

Which is normally followed by a stream of abuse from the Commander with tends to start with "What do you mean you can't see the #$%!#$^! #$^!%^@$%& !#^%@$%&@$& thing? Its right #$@#% #$^!#^! !#^!#%^!% !#^!#^ there!", etc.

"Target obscured" usually worked for us, we used it for smoke, dust and so on, and it would probably be said if a tree or some other object was in the way. :shocked:

[BaLrOg_70]

How about

"Well if I can't see the F^%$£^% thing I can't F$%^*() shoot it! Can I you F$%^&*!"

Would work for me in fact I am working on my sound files now to include the standard 'F' format fire procedure. :debile2:

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

IRL - Cursing at the target, or the obstructions, or the weather, all ok. Cursing at the vehicle commander will normally place you at the top of the list for the 3 - 4am radio watch. (not something you want to normally do...ever)

If the gunners observation of the impact location/point was obscured and the commander observed fall of shot then he would normally send the gunner corrections until the gunner could be "given" the shoot again.

In this sim it appears the only method to correct this now, is to assume the shoot and either move to the gunners position, or continue as commander with override and the sight extension. All depending on the vehicle type you're in.

[or move the vehicle to a better sight location, sometimes not possible]

I normally assume the shoot and do the engagement, then hand off the controls to the gunner for the next contact. (here, seconds count, can't wait for "just the right shot" - as spoken before - "he who shoots first, normally wins")

And yes I concure with the option of an additional response from the gunner with reference to "Not Observed" or "target obscured", but not sure how you can code that in as the gunner continues to "cycle" through his firing algorithm. Again, seconds count here!

Just an observation,

all for now ..... 9erRed

Edited September 20, 2010 by 9erRed
spelling

[Ralphie]

I think there IS a bug in there somewhere. I'm designing a mission on a map I customized, and the blue M1A1(HA) gunners aren't firing. They're fully operational with orders to defend/fire at will. I even pulled them away from any trees and put them out in the open, and still nothing.

The infantry, Leo 2 A4's I threw in, and the red forces are firing just fine.

To make things even weirder, I parked a platoon of blue M1A1's 1200 meters away from a platoon of red T72's on a blank map with defend/fire at will orders--and the M1's slaughtered them in that mission.

Something weird going on, I think...

[Ssnake]

Can you delete everything from your scenario that isn't needed to illustrate the problem, and then send it to me, please?

[Ralphie]

Ssnake, I need to delete myself! They were set to "blind." More specifically, I had set them to blind a couple of weeks ago when I was testing something on the mission and forgot.

But, I learned something: When a tank is blind, it blinds the gunner--literally blinds him. That's why I was confused when I was jumping on the tanks and telling the gunner to "F'ing shoot the sonofabitch!!!" and nothing happened until I grabbed the override pulled triggers.

I had thought the "blind" function was just some logic thing for computer-controlled vehicles that went away when a player took the vehicle over.

Ralphie: "Now I know!"

Duke: "And knowing is half the battle!"

(Singing) "G.I. JOE!!!!!"