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GaryOwen

Scenario hosting at sbgenerals

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Billy,

You're hosting a test version of a scenario that I wrote, that I've asked you to not post because it wasn't ready. Graciously honoring my request, you initially took it down. But it appears to be posted again. You wouldn't mind removing it again, would you? I'm asking here because it seems that the original conversation I had in your forum (with Fidel, I think) seems to have been deleted.

Thanks.

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I've just posted the finished version here. An early test version with some balance issues that had to be addressed is what Billy's got posted. I'd replace the bad version with the good one over there myself, but Billy's got the whole thing locked down.

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I am thinking. Maybe the best option for Billy et al would be the ask permission from the sce designer before a mission is hosted up on the General's server.

I know that if I found a scenario of mine on another server without my permission I would not be particularly happy with the situation.

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I've just posted the finished version here. An early test version with some balance issues that had to be addressed is what Billy's got posted. I'd replace the bad version with the good one over there myself, but Billy's got the whole thing locked down.

Hi, can you please post a link to it?

We had to lock certain threads/rights to guest viewers because some JERKS tried hacking/attacking the site... may they rest in piece (or rather pieces).

That's why some security measures had to be put in place.

regarding scenario I'm sure if you drop Billy or to one of the site admins a mail/PM to remove or modify it i'm sure it will be done.

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. . . regarding scenario I'm sure if you drop Billy or to one of the site admins a mail/PM to remove or modify it i'm sure it will be done.

That's the problem. I posted over at your forum and Fidel answered and the incomplete scenario was removed. Billy even sent me a PM about it. I finally found the time to play test the scenario a couple more times to work out what I perceived were its main problems. After posting the finished version here, I went to your forum to offer the finished version there as well. But I found that the original thread with Fidel had been deleted and that the old incomplete scenario was back up again without any indication regarding the information on it that I had discussed with Fidel or Billy.

I understand the problems with attacks to your forum. You're not the only ones dealing with spammers. The thread with Fidel didn't have anything to do with any type of spam or attack though. I don't understand why it was deleted.

Apparently this thing initially arose when one of your forum members helped me playtest the early version of the scenario. I think that it is good practice to do this before posting anything publicly. Billy got ahold of it and put it up.

To quote Chance from another forum on this issue:

At SBGen you can at least see a pic of what your about to download and IF the author has signed the mission, he is listed. Otherwise some missions shared in Multi player become public. There are some great missions we have but the author has password protected them so they would not become public until ready. Those are not posted. But we try to only post missions we felt were of good quality and considered public.

If that's the policy you have at your forum, even though Billy knows who the author of a scenario is and that it is considered not ready, so long as the author didn't somehow tag it with his name or password it, Billy's going to post it if he wants to.

I'd prefer to not have to password stuff, to not have to avoid playing with members of your forum lest Billy get ahold of something and consider it his own. And I'd prefer not to have anything posted for download at your forum unless it's first been posted here.

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Not meaning to highjack this thread, but it is simular...

So, am i wrong to zip up my collection of downloaded missions that i have downloaded over the years mainly from here... then load the zip on my own web site for others new to the game to download one big mission pack... I do not have the makers permissions, and unless i read each mission i wouldn't know who made it anyway... but it's a need for new people to the sim and for back up purposes and all, (I do it with most of my games I play, VBS2, ArmA, SWAT etc etc)...

so this is considered wrong, or inappropriate?

thx

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Not meaning to highjack this thread, but it is simular...

So, am i wrong to zip up my collection of downloaded missions that i have downloaded over the years mainly from here... then load the zip on my own web site for others new to the game to download one big mission pack... I do not have the makers permissions, and unless i read each mission i wouldn't know who made it anyway... but it's a need for new people to the sim and for back up purposes and all, (I do it with most of my games I play, VBS2, ArmA, SWAT etc etc)...

so this is considered wrong, or inappropriate?

thx

I don't think that there's a right or a wrong. Anything posted for the public here, though it seems fair to say, is out in the wild. Mirroring stuff at a different site seems to be a service, especially when it reaches a broader audience.

My concern, and I've probably blown this out of proportion, is that someone posted something I was working on before I was ready to offer it without my being able to fix it. It wasn't ready to be mirrored yet.

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Please link any cross forum quotes and please be sure to fully quote, not just what you need to make your point.

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2426884&fpart=2

I purposely did not post the related issue here at steel beast for a reason. If I had relized Black six Golf and Gary Owen was one in the same (Correct me if im wrong), I would not have responded at Sim HQ. As is my Opinion this thread here is nothing productive other than to start problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ7YedEopp4

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I'm not trying to start any problems. I'm trying to solve a problem. I'd like to get something removed from your website. I didn't think it was a problem at all, because Fidel and Billy were initially very responsive. I offered to send a copy of the scenario for posting there once it was complete. Billy sent me a PM that led me to believe that that was a good way to handle it. When I went to do that, I saw that the discussion I had had with Fidel was deleted, and that the old scenario was back up.

I don't know how you guys run your forums. Because the original post was deleted there, I thought that I could get the scenario you've posted there updated by bringing up the issue here. Apparently I was wrong about that, because it seems now we're about to get into a food fight. Which is not something I wanted to do.

If my failure to post the link to SimHq's was bad form, I apologize. But if you wouldn't mind telling me, how do I get one of my incomplete scenarios removed from your website, if I can't communicate there, and can't do it here without it turning into a big production?

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No need to apologize.

The collection at SBGen is not mine to edit. The owners would have to take care of it. But like Magnum's collection the missions have become public once data is transferred via the internet to ones hard drive. Your request to remove it from sbgenerals is not a problem in my opinion, but what about the other 1000 hard drives it may be on? Once its out there its out there. I myself dont always sign my work and rarely password it, but thats me. Maybe I should in the future if it is work I am proud of.

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I don't want to break anyone's balls or anything, but does the following quote mean that if we scenario designers want to have any sort of control over our work (I.E., where it is hosted up at) that we need to password the file?

There are some great missions we have but the author has password protected them so they would not become public until ready. Those are not posted. But we try to only post missions we felt were of good quality and considered public.

The source of that quote is at the link that chance posted.

The issue I doubt is that the scenario is in the wild. The issue I suspect is that the scenarios are being hosted on another server without the scenario designer's permission.

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No need to apologize.

The collection at SBGen is not mine to edit. The owners would have to take care of it.

Okay, well who are the owners, or is that a secret? And is it their position that they are going to post anything that they want to? I don't want to get into an intellectual property rights discussion, because that would be just plain silly. But this is a community.

If I spend the time to use eSim's mission or map editor to make something that might have some value to the community and then share it with the community, I'm not going to claim any copyright or anything like that.

But I generally like to get feedback on maps and scenarios before I post them for the rest of the community. I spent several hundred hours in the map editor making the Haune Valley map. I posted it and other community members have used it to make scenarios. It's out there, and anybody can do anything with it that they want. But before I posted it here, I shared it with a couple community members whose feedback I valued. They gave me good feedback that improved my ability to finish it. One of those people, Hackworth, used it to make a scenario, but out of courtesy, he waited until the map was finished before sharing his scenario.

In the case here, I was writing a head to head scenario and wanted some feedback on it. I asked someone in the TS lobby if he wanted to help me playtest the scenario. We playtested it. I hosted the game and he downloaded the scenario through the game connection. Incidentally he is a member of your forum/club/VU. He apparently, thereafter, played the scenario with Billy, who posted it.

So, it appears that the answer to my original question is that it ain't gonna happen. Billy's going to post anything that gets on his harddrive one way or the other. Does this mean that in the future, if I want to playtest a scenario and maintain some control over how it gets released, that I have to quarantine myself from anyone who is or who may later play with somebody in your VU?

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Does this mean that in the future, if I want to playtest a scenario and maintain some control over how it gets released, that I have to quarantine myself from anyone who is or who may later play with somebody in your VU?

I would have to say... I would hope not. But as the internet is the way it is. I would also hope your concerns will be governed within our community with respect, and honor for peoples work. With disregard for data ownership.

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Well Chance,

Since you seem to be the PR person on this issue, how do I in the interest of 'respect and honor for peoples work' go about getting something removed from the 'owners' website?

A question that seems has continued to go unanswered.

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Okay, deal. I won't give him any ideas. But if anything comes up in the future, I'll PM you rather than post anything here or there.

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Its up to you if you want to post mission packs - in the past I've gathered up a bunch of one persons work and posted it in one big zip file. I've also zipped up all my missions and send them to someone that just reformatted, but I dont think I'd post that online, not unless I could somehow figure out who made them to give them some credit. I've already run into that problem with a bunch of SB1 missions I want to convert. Whoever made it didnt put their name on the briefing, so its tough to give proper credit when a repost it as a pro pe sce.

Heres my point - Lets say Joe Bob spends a lot of time making a scenario or a map or whatever. He posts it on his VU site or personal site. People go there to get it. Fine. Joe Bob gets deployed to iraq, and cancels his site. All his hard work is gone. Poof. Or his site crashes for some reason, and nothings backed up. Some people might have his stuff on their hard drive but probably wont post it back up again. A great deal of effort and time/money is spent here to make sure that stuff stays available, and gets backed up. So, I'd like to see peoples wont get posted here so its always available to the community.

A related issue is the concept of centralization - being able to get almost everything you need in the same place. Some of these "open source" nuke type projects are very decentralized. If I wanted to fine a postnuke plugin that showed TS information, I would search the postnuke downloads area. I might find a "download" there that was actually a link to some guys personal site. Well, guess what, that guy switched ISPs or canceled his hosting account, and now the link is broken. I would end up googling and going all over the place to try to find what I needed. It was utter insanity.

Sorry for hijacking your thread gary.

Not meaning to highjack this thread, but it is simular...

So, am i wrong to zip up my collection of downloaded missions that i have downloaded over the years mainly from here... then load the zip on my own web site for others new to the game to download one big mission pack... I do not have the makers permissions, and unless i read each mission i wouldn't know who made it anyway... but it's a need for new people to the sim and for back up purposes and all, (I do it with most of my games I play, VBS2, ArmA, SWAT etc etc)...

so this is considered wrong, or inappropriate?

thx

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