I'll be back

[GreenSmoke]

Soon... I *should* be getting SB Pro PE for Christmas this year. I haven't had a PC capable of running it until recently so I've been reduced to lurking and drooling for a long time now. I'm really looking forward to the Bradley in the worst way since I gunned one in a prior life. See you in some online games in early 2011 :-)

-GreenSmoke

[GaryOwen]

I'm really looking forward to the Bradley in the worst way since I gunned one in a prior life.

Send me a PM when you're up and running.

[ottoramsaig]

Same, here

[GreenSmoke]

My wife got a package the other day with a return address listed as eSim Games so I know it's in the house - I brought the package in. One more week - lol. It's killing me ;-)

[ottoramsaig]

Send me a PM when you're up and running.

Gary, still trying to figure out Port Forwarding. Can you give me direction on establishing MP?

[GaryOwen]

I brought the package in. One more week - lol. It's killing me ;-)

Dude, you've got a little bit too much self control, if that's possible.

Otto -- check PM

[GreenSmoke]

Dude, you've got a little bit too much self control, if that's possible.

Otto -- check PM

Well, if I opened it and was playing it before Christmas my life would be hell for a while ;-) I've been waiting for this for a long, long time so another week isn't too bad. Plus I've been pretty busy so it keeps my mind off it - lol.

[Retro]

Well.. you could cheat and install the download version (and also patch this) so that you'd only need to insert the codemeter stick tomorrow and are ready to go...

However please note that the DVD version contains a few more additional goodies as far as I know..

[GreenSmoke]

Installing :-) I'll try to report back later ;-)

[GreenSmoke]

Wow! SB Pro PE is just incredible and I haven't scratched the surface yet. The level of immersion is excellent. The thermals are an enormous improvement of the original which were just a bit too good. I wonder if they aren't a bit worse then reality in some cases? The thermal sight on the M2A2 was really excellent in real life - better than in this sim although it's been a long time since I looked through one so it might be my memory. I absolutely love the Bradley. It alone is worth the price. The only other vehicle that I've messed around with has been the M1A1. The armor doesn't seem as good as it was in the original SB. Nothing like taking a hit and watching your gas run out in the middle of a fight. Anyway, I have lots to learn and look forward to trying MP when I get a little bit more up to speed.

Everyone at eSim should be very, very proud of this product. It is truly top notch!

[Ssnake]

I'm glad you like it.

[Hedgehog]

The Gyros (Stabilisation) in this version are tougher, much tougher.

Seriously, you need a nuclear bomb to take them offline.

In all my SB Pro playing time I have never had a Gyro taken out by enemy fire.

[Suicidal_6]

Nature of the game I suppose, but I too was a Bradley gunner way back when the dinosaurs roamed. 90 - 92 Ft Polk, LA. D Co 3/6 Inf.

[Ssnake]

The Gyros (Stabilisation) in this version are tougher, much tougher.

Seriously, you need a nuclear bomb to take them offline.

In all my SB Pro playing time I have never had a Gyro taken out by enemy fire.

Okay. I guess we can eventually adjust that a little. They should be reasonably sturdy, but an adjustment only makes sense after a general review of HE rounds (which might result in some other alterations).

[Hedgehog]

Well, I'm just expressing recollections with SB1 that you could take 1-2 hits before they went down.

Sometimes they would be knocked out with the first hit.

You had to know the backup modes with SB 1.

Not that I'm complaining, it would add some variety to (at least to my) SB Pro gunnery procedures.

Now, lets see ArmA 2 match this level of support.

:biggrin:

[GreenSmoke]

I've noticed the following with the M2A2 model (while playing the tanks 2.0 scenario). I'm not complaining - just pointing them out.

Ready Boxes: The ready boxes on the real M2A2 can hold 70 and 230 rounds (the PDF tutorial has it correct). The sim starts with 100 AP and 200 HE. The ready box also has a switch to indicate which type of ammo it holds so you can load 230 AP and 70 HE if you want (I'm guessing this isn't modeled). I think you could probably load 300 rounds of one type as well but I never did this in real life.

Reloading: Once I had used most of my AP and had less than 100 AP rounds available, 50 say, when I would reload HE, it would load 250 HE. That would indicate that ammo is of a mixed type in one of the ready boxes which is definitely a no go. I also noticed the HE rounds were being loaded one at a time where the AP rounds were loaded 10 at a time. 10 at a time makes sense since the rounds come linked (I don't remember how many in each section). When loading rounds into the ready box I remember linking however many I was going to load together and then putting them into the ready box all at once - not 10 at a time.

Engagement ranges: I killed several BMPs from 2400 to as far as 2990 meters with AP. I can't imaging being able to do that in real life but I never had to try. I don't remember ever trying to engage anything beyond 1800 meters with AP. I didn't have a laser range finder when I was in the M2A2 (1990-1992) so maybe with accurate ranging it's possible.

-Bill

[GaryOwen]

The reloads are being addressed.

See: http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=14921

WRT, the range finder, the version modelled is the -A2 ODS.

See: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m2a2ods.htm

As far as the range on the AP, go into the editor, select and load the mission, right click on a Bradley unit and going through the menu options, select the ammunition. You'll notice that there are different rounds with different specifications available. (Try playing around with the TOW 2B.) You can also adjust the number of rounds in the ready boxes from this point as well.

There are some things that aren't modelled exactly. The ready box modelling could be improved. The extra capacity of the feed chutes could be modelled. The low ammo override could be modelled. The AP/HE selector switch in the ready box could be modelled. I don't believe that load times presently change if the dismounts are on the ground rather than in the back of the vehicle.

Edited December 31, 2010 by GaryOwen
spelling

[GreenSmoke]

Gary,

Thanks! I didn't realize the ready boxes for configurable in the mission editor. That's cool.

I knew they upgraded the M2A2 to have a laser range finder - why the original didn't is beyond me. I guess the cost was probably the reason. I was just questioning the effective range of the ammo. I'm betting we trained with a maximum range that we could expect to hit something, not what the ammo was capable of.

I wouldn't expect *everything* to be modeled - it would just get too crazy.

Again, thanks for the info!

-Bill

[GaryOwen]

The range issue is probably because a newer round is being used in the scenario.

See: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m919.htm

[Mogwa]

If you want to model the earlier Bradley version, you could also use the mission editor to damage the LRF.

Mog

[GreenSmoke]

Thanks all.

I like the laser range finder - the Bradley should have always had one.

The only thing still bugging me is that I can shoot half of my AP and then begin loading more HE (or vice-versa) . Since the HE box is already full, the additional HE must be going into the AP box. That should be fixed. I wouldn't care if I completely ran out the AP and then filled the box with HE. I just wouldn't combine two ammo types in a single box.

-Bill

[Ssnake]

The maximum engagement range depends on a number of variables. The biggest factor is of course the ammunition's terminal ballistic performance. Steel Beasts Pro probably offers the best non-analytic, open source based damage model of armored vehicles and terminal ballistics, yet there clearly are limits. Who could say how effective the rounds are once that they have successfully perforated the outer armor shell?

The perforation mechanism itself is "relatively" easy to understand and doesn't require an outrageous amount of parameters to model in an adequate manner. But once that the projectile is through, we're all in fantasy land. Should the likelihood of component X to be damaged by ammunition Y be 10%? 15%? 50%?

Who knows? Even if there are people who know, they can't tell. And in any case there is no known field survey for all vehicles and all components and all ammunition types against which our model could be validated.

So, I wouldn't rule out that we are overestimating the effects that the ammunition may have at ranges exceeding 1800m. I am however pretty confident that if you manage to perforate a BMP with 25mm APFSDS at 2800m in Steel Beasts, you probably could in real life too. What happens then however remains guesswork.

Another factor that is often not recognized is ammunition dispersion, or other exterior ballistic factors that would negatively impact the actual hit likelihood (which directly influences the ammunition consumption per target). So it may be that the US Army decided not to train engagement ranges beyond 1800m at your time because they considered it the threshold beyond which too many rounds would be needed to defeat mobile targets, and not because the ammunition was not effective beyond this.

Finally, the higher performing APFSDS ammunition for the 25mm gun in Steel Beasts Pro (M919) was only fielded, IIRC, for Operation Desert Storm. It was found that the barrel erosion of that ammo was unacceptably high. We're still offering it as a kind of "what if" option, but the default round should be the M719.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Ssnake
spelling & grammar

[GreenSmoke]

Thanks for the info and explanation. I would say that I should have thought more about it before posting the range question. I never fired my M16 at anything over 300 meters but I sure as hell wouldn't want to get hit but a round at 900 meters!

The only real issue I see with the M2 model is the fact you can mix ammo types in the ready boxes. It's not a big deal, just something that you might want to fix when/if time permits. I'm sure everyone as eSim has a million other higher priority things to work on for customers that pay your bills. I'm just happy that you found a way to offer such a great sim to the general public. I never imagined I could get something this good outside of the military.

Thanks for all of your support.