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Can this be rigth?


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I put 2 Leo2a5 up against eachother at 4000m.

I jump into 1 I have the KE-WA2 ammo, pounded the other Leo2a5 with 9 hits direct front, all that happend was that it lost its tracks, other than that it was fully operational.

I know for a fact that in denmark the normal doctrin is that moving targets will be engaged at 4000m and stationairy at 6000m (in Leo2a5´s).

Now if that is normal procedure, shouldnt the KE-WA2 ammo have totally destroyed that Leo2a5 as i mentioned above.

Is it the ammo that is wrong modelled or the armour of the Leo2a5 that is wrong modelled?

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I would find it hard to see and id a target at 4000m, do Danes have some sort of "special" id powers.

Are they not concerned about blue on blue?

The armour on the LEO2A5 is about 680mm RHA (-/+) and the ammo can do 480-500mm at 4000m, so at 6000m it would be even less, and to hit a moving target, seems unlikely.

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6km engagements? Wow, shot dispersion alone would make it nearly improssible to hit something that far away unless you were using a railgun.

4km engagements are difficult enough, but that is coming from a former M1A1 tanker. Now days the FCS / FCC / CCPs are probably capable of calculating fire control solutions beyond 4km, and some of the newer tanks go well beyond 10x sights with FLIRs.

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6km engagements? Wow, shot dispersion alone would make it nearly improssible to hit something that far away unless you were using a railgun.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. During the "water war" Israel engaged Syrian bulldozers with 105mm APDS at ranges topping at about 10400m, with a hit rate of about 40%.

While I agree that target ID is difficult, often impossible, the Bundeswehr has procedures to engage targets beyond 4000m (lase, index HEAT, enter a range manually that has the equivalent superelevation, aim, fire), so I take the DK claim as absolutely serious.

Now days the FCS / FCC / CCPs are probably capable of calculating fire control solutions beyond 4km, and some of the newer tanks go well beyond 10x sights with FLIRs.

For the Greek Leo 2A6 6km ranges are supposed to be the norm, and firing solutions will be calculated even beyond that from what I've heard. While I do not rule out FCS upgrades for Strv122 and Leo 2A5DK, as of yet I don't think that they actually have been upgraded so you still need that "HEAT cheat".

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I agree that modern FCS and computers can find the targets and get the round on target. However my problem is with the id'ing of the targets. We have seen so many frats on friendlies in the past years from not only tanks but the US air force that any commander engaging targtes over 2000m without superior viewing equipment is going to engage a friendly. From what I've read and seen I can't see how any commander can positively ID the target at the above ranges. I for one do not engage anything I can't positively confirm that is a enemy, regardless of "we are on the front line, anything beyond is enemy". I would think its better to be sure at 4000m and beyond givin that they probably can't see or ID you.

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Sorry, but that's nonsense. During the "water war" Israel engaged Syrian bulldozers with 105mm APDS at ranges topping at about 10400m, with a hit rate of about 40%.

I'm pretty sure they were HE rounds, where 'close enough' would be good enough.

Granted there have been improvements in ammunition and FCS in recent times since the says of the M1A1, but I'm unconvinced that the dispersion rates have improved so dramatically that even a Leo2A6 can expect first-round-hits on a tank-sized target from the front at 6km as a matter of course.

NTM

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I'm pretty sure they were HE rounds, where 'close enough' would be good enough.

No. For these ranges they had to use APDS. Since the targets weren't armored the excessive range didn't matter much, and the Jordan river diversion was never completed.

I'm unconvinced that the dispersion rates have improved so dramatically that even a Leo2A6 can expect first-round-hits on a tank-sized target from the front at 6km as a matter of course.

I don't think that first round hits are expected at these ranges.

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Reguarding the 4000m and 6000m issue, for thoose who dont belive it I really dont care, I tend to trust a trained Leo2a5 gunner in the danish army, rather than some dude whos only experince with a Leo is in SB :). But i can tell you this, Ssnake is rigth about the HEAT scale usage, just try it yourself in SB.

But that was not my question in this thread. :)

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Sorry, but that's nonsense. During the "water war" Israel engaged Syrian bulldozers with 105mm APDS at ranges topping at about 10400m, with a hit rate of about 40%.

While I agree that target ID is difficult, often impossible, the Bundeswehr has procedures to engage targets beyond 4000m (lase, index HEAT, enter a range manually that has the equivalent superelevation, aim, fire), so I take the DK claim as absolutely serious.

For the Greek Leo 2A6 6km ranges are supposed to be the norm, and firing solutions will be calculated even beyond that from what I've heard. While I do not rule out FCS upgrades for Strv122 and Leo 2A5DK, as of yet I don't think that they actually have been upgraded so you still need that "HEAT cheat".

Hi Snake

this is a very interesting revelation ie 105mm APDS being used out to 10km plus. I would be most interested in reading the source material. Most KE rounds do not have trace so therefore how would the crew have a clue where they are firing let alone try to apply any corrections. The use of an APDS round as an area weapon in my opinion is not only very costly but also very ineffective. If we are talking about Hesh or other CE rounds then the use of QFC and other indirect techniques can extend the range of Cheiftan/Challenger 1 out to over 14km.

Irish

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I understand that APDS is significantly more consistent than APFSDS is, and can retain accuracy to much longer ranges, especially in the presence of variable winds. The lower velocity drop and higher armour penetration of the APFSDS round makes is usually better for the primary anti-armour round.

I would expect that the fire positions were surveyed and prepared, and that the fall of shot was observed by a FO much closer to the bulldozer and/or offset from the LOF. The correction would then be made in a similar manner to artillery fire, finding the line, establishing a bracket and bisecting the bracket until a hit was obtained.

With practice and training, and using known target and firer locations, the initial accuracy is going to be an order of magnitude better than obtainable 'on-the-hoof'

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Oh, and SB doesn't support the HEAT cheat for Leopards in the GPS, as the Loader always indexes for the correct ammunition type.

Can be used on the M1A1, or with the Aux sights. The conversion should be relatively simple, using published ballistic tables for typical round types.

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I've read that the theoretical maximum range for the HE/HEAT for many modern tanks is a minimum 9km.

I thought the Israelis were using HEAT ammo when they engaged their enemy at more than 9km away. The book didn't specify the ammo type. So I figured it was a HEAT round.

Here's a quote from Gen Israel Tal:

He picks up a fin stabilized rod penetrator that happens to be lying nearby in his office, and remarks that, if fired at 45 degrees from the same gun(Merkava's 120mm gun), it would fly to an altitude of 50 km and travel 200 km

Military experts in England might dismiss that as nonsense too, but you tell them that we killed many, many of our enemies with it.

So I guess yeah that 10 km+ engagement was done with the sabot.

Though I'm sure the Israelis didn't kill any enemy at 200km LOL(it was just to illustrate the gun's power).

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I would expect that the fire positions were surveyed and prepared, and that the fall of shot was observed by a FO much closer to the bulldozer and/or offset from the LOF. The correction would then be made in a similar manner to artillery fire, finding the line, establishing a bracket and bisecting the bracket until a hit was obtained. '

Hi again

having fired both APDS and APFSDS I dont think the accuracy of the actual round bears that much relevence. I have also had a gunner fire KE rounds off the Hesh graticule and we all wondered how far the round went, from Lulworth we used to laugh that it might make France. Joking aside to try and observe a sabot landing when it has no trace or even next to no landing signature would be extreamly difficult. Not only that but if it were possible to see a round land and report the fall of shot what data or reference would the gunner have to apply the corrections that are needed to bring the fall of shot onto target. It would be much more an act of war to carry out the engagement using Hesh which I believe was available for the 105mm L7.

Irish

Irish

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Sorry, but that's nonsense. During the "water war" Israel engaged Syrian bulldozers with 105mm APDS at ranges topping at about 10400m, with a hit rate of about 40%.

I assume that by 40% hitrate, you mean 40% of the targets were hit.

Normally, in the danish army, a 100% hitrate is used to describe a shooting where ALL TARGETS are hit. It does not describe the ammo/hit rate, as some targets may need more than one shot.

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Reguarding the 4000m and 6000m issue, for thoose who dont belive it I really dont care, I tend to trust a trained Leo2a5 gunner in the danish army,

Yes gunners are the best source for real info on gunnery, especially their own gunnery skills:shocked:. I have had a few that thought they could hit anything anytime in all weather conditions. However they seem to be the best in their minds only.

The word of a gunner was not quit the source we were looking for, if you can get some data from him to support the claim it would be great.:)

rather than some dude whos only experince with a Leo is in SB :)

I would not place myself in this area, would you?

. But i can tell you this, Ssnake is rigth about the HEAT scale usage, just try it yourself in SB.

That scale is used for other things also

But that was not my question in this thread. :)

Also "rigth" is spelled right, if you want the meaning to be "correct", if not there is a posting in ground Zero.

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I tend to trust a trained Leo2a5 gunner in the danish army, rather than some dude whos only experince with a Leo is in SB

Given that the cannon in Leo2A5 is as near as makes no difference the same as that in M1A1, I wouldn't utterly discount our opinions either. I know that if I'm stationary, my target is stationary facing me, and is exactly 3990m from me with 3990m indexed, the dispersion out of my 120mm/44 is such that I have somewhere on the order of a 50-50 chance of a hit, if not worse.

I think it rather revolves around Ssnake's comment:

I don't think that first round hits are expected at these ranges.

I agree that there is nothing prohibiting the Danish Army from having a doctrine which permits 6km tank shooting. On the same level, as my instructing corporal put it, "Effective range for the FAL is 300m for individual fire, 600m for section fire. The theory being that if you're all firing at the target, chances are one of you will hit it"

I'm only carrying 40 rounds and would very much like to get as many kills out of them as possible. I would want a very good reason to have a bunch of tanks firing speculative shots at 6km, particularly when I have a radio mounted in the tank and there are probably a whole bunch of very bored artillerymen a few miles behind me. The question is over just how much return you're expecting to get on your investment. Maybe the Danes have bought a crapload of tank ammunition, and little artillery and they consider it worthwhile to engage at that range.

NTM

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Oooh dude.....thats sweet, thanks for the info EINSTEIN!!

erm, half the people who have replied to your posts has served on an armoured vehicle at some point in time.

Volcanoman - M1A1

3star - M1A1

Ssnake - leopard 2A4

IrishHussar - challenger

12A - some canadian light recce vehicle.

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