CAS

[stormrider_sp]

I was messing around with CAS a few days ago, and I´ve noticed how ineffective AH are ingame. I tried ambushing T-80s downrange, something like 3 to 4km away, but my chopper (can make a formation dont know why) always got busted. I tried some bop up attacks, hiding behing cover (trees), then popping up just long enough to launch, but surprisingly I always got blown out by missiles launched by the tanks before my chooper could launch. I didnt see not even flares being thrown out in defense, nor any evasise action. Btw, from 3km and behind cover and from behind, how could my helo be spotted and engaged before he did so?

Does anybody have any effective tactic to use CAS ingame? Is it possible to make units invisible to enemies or selected ai units?

cheers

[Furia]

You do not want CAS to be realistic on this sim :debile2:

We barely have no realistic Air defence system and if you let loose some attack helos or even aircrafts on a sim like this one without a serious Air Defence system, much people would be very unhappy. :diable:

I guess the purposse of this sim is to train maneuvering and operations of armoured units taking for granted air superiority since Air Defence or even CAS are not the purposse of the simulator. And on the armoured warfare area alone this sim is unbeatable.

So I guess they added "some kind" of Air support units but not really realistically modelled to be much much dangerous.

Anyway some helos on this sim can ruin your day if you ignore them :debile2:

You can create units that "DO NOT SEE THE ENEMY". Kind of being invencible.

Right click on unit while on editor and on unit status select unit does not see enemy.

[rump]

The Helos in SB were originally added as targets, not as opponents.

[Volcano]

Well, I am not aware of any flare or evasive maneuver that will avoid a maingun round travelling at over a thousand meters per second. But really, the problem with helicopters is that there is a known bug where helicopters will not engage targets unless they are at least 4km away, thereby not allowing them their full 8km potential. We hope to fix that eventually but apparently it is not trivial. Addressing this bug will make them much more effective, allowing them to kill targets when you aren't even aware that they are present on the battlefield. IRL a helicopter would seldom voluntarily engage tanks inside of a tank's maingun range and live to tell about it - they would instead engage tanks from well beyond a range in which they could return fire.

But yes, if your avatar is of an attack helicopter and you are expecting an advanced model of attack helicopters then you are looking in the wrong place unfortunately. You can expect the same level of fidelity here for attack helicopters as you would expect of a tank in a helicopter simulation.

[stormrider_sp]

Well, I am not aware of any flare or evasive maneuver that will avoid a maingun round travelling at over a thousand meters per second.

I´ve read somewhere that the target´s max speed that MBTs main gun can engage is somewhere around 65mph. Thats basically enganging a hovering helo! Any other than that case, tanks must rely on their missiles and there is where flares and jammers and evasive actions take place.

I´m pretty aware that Steel Beasts is supposed to simulate tanks, I remember back in the days of Steel Beasts 1, where the producers used to say exactly the same thing when users requested air support. But they changed their mind, they had to, specially and probably when they were trying to sell their product to the militaries, and most likely, the militaries replied that Air units are an INTEGRAL part of the modern battlefield.

Here I´m not making any complains nor anything, nor do I want an advanced AH model. I´m a rotorhead myself, but even rotorheads are/were ground troops too! Otherwise, choppers would belong to the Air Force!

Instead, I´m asking how can I make them useful ingame, as they were meant to be; support units on station, just like artillery for example. These would give another level of immersion to my missions, cause in fact, its the mission designers job to balance his mission. In real life, one single Apache Longbow can annihilate 4 tank platoons in on salvo without even being seen or heard. We all know that. But what if that is exactly the mission designer´s intent?

[Eisenschwein]

Some real Life from Germany:

- Dropping Flairs is like say "Hello here I am". Most Tanks (if they have them) use wire guided missiles.

- Firing at a fast moving Chopper is a waste of Ammo, but why do so ?? If a Chopper is moving he can not use any Weapon that could be dangerous for a Tank.

- If a Chopper is in Battle Position fire with all 4 Tanks

- KE Rounds needs 1 Second for 1.700 meters, a Missile needs 6 seconds....

- Tanks do not need a direct Hit to a Chopper, if KE hit the Airstream beyond the Rotor the Chopper will get instable ( not the best while, flying 3 Meters to the Ground)

Thats it !

Some for the use in SB

- Use a "Chopper Circle" (one Center Point with a minimum of 5 Battle Positions the Chopper goes randomly)

- Set the Time in Battle Position to a max of 3 Minutes, then let him fall back to the Center Point

- Use the LOS triangle to see if the Chopper can see where you want him to fire

- Set the Tactic in the Battle Positions to "hold"

Sorry for my rusty English, but I hope you get it and it helps !!

[Mogwa]

I´ve read somewhere that the target´s max speed that MBTs main gun can engage is somewhere around 65mph. Thats basically enganging a hovering helo! Any other than that case, tanks must rely on their missiles and there is where flares and jammers and evasive actions take place.?

I'm not aware of any max speed for a target impeding the FCS of any of the MBTs, but thats beside the point. I may not know much about helicopters, but I'm not aware of any attack helos that fire ATGMs that arent at a hover. 65 mph is not a hover in my book.

Volcanos point remains valid. A helo getting engaged by a tank main gun round will not have time to deploy countermeasures and even if it did they would not bother the incoming sabot round one little bit.

m pretty aware that Steel Beasts is supposed to simulate tanks, I remember back in the days of Steel Beasts 1, where the producers used to say exactly the same thing when users requested air support. But they changed their mind, they had to, specially and probably when they were trying to sell their product to the militaries, and most likely, the militaries replied that Air units are an INTEGRAL part of the modern battlefield.?

Let me clarify this for you. In every case I'm aware of, the helos were added at the request of a military to serve as either a target or to simulate resupply or air assault activities. Helos were not added, as you assert, because the developers were forced to admit some sort of error and add helos so that the sim could be marketed to military customers.

Instead, I´m asking how can I make them useful ingame, as they were meant to be; support units on station, just like artillery for example. These would give another level of immersion to my missions, cause in fact, its the mission designers job to balance his mission. In real life, one single Apache Longbow can annihilate 4 tank platoons in on salvo without even being seen or heard. We all know that. But what if that is exactly the mission designer´s intent?

Im not certain what your point is here. Volcano has already stated there is a bug related to helos engageing in a certain range band with ATGMs and I'm sure the developers are working on squashing that bug.

Since no helo in SB has the ability to fire ATGMs in the manner the Longblow does, the volley fire question is moot. If the mission designers intent is that a single helo destroys a company of tanks in a few seconds then i suppose that is what will happen in most cases if a helo is ever added with Longblow like capabilities.

Of course there are ADA vehicles that would be welcome additions to SB. Things like SA-9, ZSU-23-4, ZSU-57-2, M-163, Avenger and Chapperal come to mind and would all be within the scope of the sim, and would balance any current or future attack helos that get added.

Mog

[GaryOwen]

Of course there are ADA vehicles that would be welcome additions to SB. Things like SA-9, ZSU-23-4, ZSU-57-2, M-163, Avenger and Chapperal come to mind and would all be within the scope of the sim, and would balance any current or future attack helos that get added.

Mog

Duck Season!

[Volcano]

If you want to make your helos effective, give them a route up to the enemy and have them stop around 4 km and put them on "Guard" tactics. Then have a route coming from that waypoint to another firing position with the same tactics and so on. What will happen is, if the enemy fires on the helicopter it will immediately fly away to the next point and evade it (providing that it observes the fire on them in the first place). Give them NOE height at the waypoint and they should pop up to fire if they are aware of targets to their front.

[Tacbat]

You could also try setting the fire control orders of the "bad guys" to a range of 3500m or 3000m thereby giving the chopper a cushion of 500-1000m to make their shot.

[Grenny]

I´ve read somewhere that the target´s max speed that MBTs main gun can engage is somewhere around 65mph. Thats basically enganging a hovering helo!

The 65mph limit could refer to the max speed, where you can track(and therefor lead) the target.

Remeber, this would be RELATIVE speed at a 90° angle towards the aim line.

I don't think flying 90°s to your target is a good option. (don't know realy...but I guess you would make a great target to any AD asset then?)

There some good ways allready listed of making the choppers quiete anoying in any scenario, esp. if they pop up in you flank or from higher angles where you'd never look to :-P

With the route setting mentioned by Eisen and Volcano you can simulate at least a kind of evasive behaviour.

As for flares: no weaponsystem modeled in SB so far would be impressed by them. All the SAM are SACLOS types 8-)

But I shall not bubble about that to much...as I know this much about correct AH deployment ;-) . So an actual "rotor-heads" insights are allways wellcome!!

[stormrider_sp]

Thanks for those who helped answering the question proposed.

Grenny, if you want to know more about the capabilities of AHs, I would recommend 2 books: Hellfire and Apache, written by Ed Macy.

Those 2 books take place in Afghanistan doing a role that Attack Helos were not designed to: Counter Insurgency. Despite that, there´re plenty of information regarding the actual system and its real employment.

[stormrider_sp]

This is what AHs look like.

[Retro]

This too