Smoothbore gun accuracy

[Ssnake]

Al and I are currently preparing a systematic and critical review of EVERY type of ammunition that human players can access in SB Pro (calibers 30mm and up). Preparations are not yet fully complete, and the test itself is going to cost us a fair bit of time. Please bear with me while I am doing all the tests. I will let you know of the results once that I am trough with this.

[jazjar]

should I download server or client?

[sabot_ready]

client

[Captain_Colossus]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa Colossus, I'm not that type of person you're describing me as, however, I am simply having troubles with my legally purchased copy of SB that no one else seems to have, and I'm perfectly willing to patiently work it out with the help of this .

I've not described you as a type of person. I'm saying that you should rule out the idea you have a different copy right off the bat. You undertand that people are trying to get an idea of what you perceive to be a problem, that certainly isn't going to add anything here.

I just did a test against a T-72M with the M1A1, using default A1 ammunition. This was on a flat, basic map with no contours of any kind, no cant will affect it at all. Target is static, I lased a range of 1540 meters, then I dumped lead, reticle was sighted right on the T-72 gun tube as best as I could.

Result: 9 out of 10 hits.

Analysis: The first four shots all hit: 1 on either side of the gun tube, one a little high around the TC cupola, one a little low right in the turret ring, detonating the ammunition and so the turret blew off, now I had an even smaller target, but I proceeded.

I aimed square on the glacis, with six shots remaining, I hit it five times, one appeared to go high, but it's not altogether clear as the gun flash and the burning target made it difficult to tell.

When I was shooting at the glacis, of all the shots that hit, one appeared to really drift and hit the right track. The rest for the most part looked pretty brutal and hit dead center.

If it weren't for the turret blowing off, all ten shots would have hit at that range, but maybe two or three wouldn't have been kill shots- the one on the track probably wouldn't have, perhaps the one that went high and scored on the TC cupola would invite argument as to what it means.

[jazjar]

TeamSpeak3 Client 64-bit is installed.

[sabot_ready]

fire it up and under the "connection" option you will enter the follow info.

ip: 216.22.24.158 and if asked for the port, enter 9987

And enter your name

[12Alfa]

Al and I are currently preparing a systematic and critical review of EVERY type of ammunition that human players can access in SB Pro (calibers 30mm and up). Preparations are not yet fully complete, and the test itself is going to cost us a fair bit of time. Please bear with me while I am doing all the tests. I will let you know of the results once that I am trough with this.

STOP!!!!:eek2::eek2:

I think the next upgrade is needed more, we can live with what we have given for dispersion it's so small, (and most of us can't hit shit anyways).

We need a T-72 playable and the suspension thingee....:biggrin:

[Ssnake]

Sorry, it's too late. I found too many hints that something isn't quite right, and who knows what else is affected by it. It would be unprofessional to not investigate.

That being said, I can assure you that this will not affect the release schedule, or the timing of anything else that you mentioned in your post (for one or the other of two possible reasons).

[Tacbat]

Just make dispersion a factor of the realism setting. "Low" means "no" dispersion, while "high" means "expected" dispersion. Everyone wins, even if it take times away from making things bounce.

[jazjar]

Thank you Ssnake! You are a savior!

[IrishHussar]

Hey how did I get involved in this??:eek2:

I would have to did up my gunnery manual to give you the 10 reasons, but I think we have posted them here on the forum.:cul:

It's been over 15 years for me teaching gunnery.:frown:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishHussar

In order to answer that we need to look at the various reasons for a first round miss.

1. Incorrect lay by the gunner, this will be corrected by relaying and relasing the target.

2. Incorrect range to target, this will also be corrected by the same proceedure.

3. Minor variations between rounds introduced by the maufacturing process.

4. Loss of gun/sight relationship, by checking the Muzzle Reference System (MRS)making adjustments then firing another round could also destroy the target.

The list goes on

Hope this helps

Irish

I know, I taught gunnery, however it still won't correct the second shot by inputting the same firing inputs.

If and this is a big "IF" the gunner repeats the same, he should hit the same place. Now if he does one of his inputs differently there will be a variation in the fall of shot.

To avoid all of this, a add 100 is the fastest way of getting a clear view of (the missing from view)first shot IMO

PS , we have 10 not 4 reasons for missing first round on trg.

__________________

12Alfa

Lost but making good time.

I knew if I waited long enough I could get you back with this LOL

[jazjar]

Irish, I know what you're saying, but I don't have any of these problems. My problem is with the ammunition modelling itself. I can never get a round into the M1's gunsight main circle at 1500 meters. This is an accurate indicator of the fact that Steelbeasts is not modelling real life correctly, As Volcano stated earlier, on a tank range, before you go on the range, you must first shoot at an "octagon" 1.75 meters in diameter placed at 1500 meters away from the tank. The math works itself out nicely so that the octagon is just a little larger than the inner circle. Anyways, you are supposed to shoot at the target 3 times, and if any one of those three rounds miss, you are supposed to go back and boresight again. In other words, the M1s in SB, or at least MY copy have failed the range!

[Ssnake]

I don't know what you're doing, but you MUST be doing something wrong. Maybe you lase and shoot from the 3x field of view and not the 10x view, so it APPEARS as if the gun dispersion is bigger than it actually is?

You will need at least 500 to 1000 shots to establish with reasonable accuracy the actual dispersion of any ammunition. And you need to be really accurate in locating the impact with respect to the aiming point. Looking at it live from the gunner's position won't give you a reliable result because the gun smoke and the impact flash will obscure much of the details.

You should join a network session with an experienced Steel Beasts player so he can watch your action from the GPSE and discuss with you what you're doing and what you're seeing. I don't know what if wrong there, but sure as hell we didn't send you a special SB Pro version that behaves differently than any other. If nobody else can see what you're seeing, the overwhelming likelihood is that it's a local problem.

[Volcano]

Thank you Ssnake! You are a savior!

Well, nothing in his post implied that anything would change drastically and, if it changed, whether it would be in the direction you wanted. But at least he is looking at it.

[Eisenschwein]

First off all it depends on the Ammo you use, second are YOU doing all right.....

I dono know much of bore sighting and seroing M1´s, BUT I know all of doing this at Leo 2 L44.

It´s a german gun, so the Procedure must be nearly the same....

Leo 2 have to be boresight at 500 m with a allowed spray ( can someone help out, what is the term for "Streuung"?) of 30 cm (KE DM 33/53/53L).

You also can borsight at 1.000 m with allowed spray of 50 cm.

The "Lasercircle" (inner part of the sight) is 0,5- (thats 50 cm at 1.000m) in all, so if you fire with 1.000 m all shot have to be in this circle.

If you shoot at 1500 the Lasercircle is 25 cm and allowed spraying is 70 cm, so the Projectial can´t be in the inner circle.

Irish:

Second shoot without watching the first is also a little different here:

If you don´t see were the first Round hit (without complete FCS, mostly used with TZF)

the second Round is fired to the Target bottom, third after you see were the second goes to.

Why? If you can´t see the first one, it must be OVER but you can´t realize were, or see what you usually see when a shot impacts before the Target. Second shoot one must be

explicit lower to have the chance to see it or to hit the Target.

If the Target is not hit with the second shoot, 100% you see were the Projectile impact and you can use another Aiming point. And boooom.

Hope you can understand this awful English ;-)

EDIT: Join the german TS and i will have an Eye on it

[jazjar]

So at 1,000 meters, all of the shots have to be within the small circle in the Leo's sight? O.K, well now that is not possible at all in SB.

[Eisenschwein]

Jep, here is a a picture (120mm MZ Üb/ 1.000m)

[jazjar]

Danke Schön! I suppose that the circle is representative of the leo's sight symbology and that the board was placed 1000 meters away? I will go and do some more tests in SB

[Eisenschwein]

No, the circle is 30 cm, so you can use it with 500 m too.

And yes this was a shooting at 1.000 m.

Have a look at the "Zollstock" ;-)

[Gibsonm]

Leo 2 have to be boresight at 500 m with a allowed spray ( can someone help out, what is the term for "Streuung"?) of 30 cm (KE DM 33/53/53L).

Dispersion

Grouping

CEP

[jazjar]

So at 500m it fits the sight symbology?

[Eisenschwein]

Jep and thx Gibsonm

[jazjar]

O.K thanks, Is there any sort of boresight panel in SB that we can use to measure shot dispersion?

[Ssnake]

(can someone help out, what is the term for "Streuung"?)

Dispersion.

If you shoot at 1500 the Lasercircle is 25 cm

Typo?

1,500 is 3/2 of 1,000m; 50cm x 3/2 = 75 (which still is equal to the laser beam dispersion).

[Ssnake]

I think that Boresight Panel 1 is available in SB Pro PE (in the Mission Editor, click New... NATO Target... Panel 1). Looks like a checkerboard. The inner squares are 50cm each, so the entire panel is 1.5 x 1.5m

Remember: The sample size must be at least 500 rounds to come close to about 5% to the actual dispersion value. With one round every eight seconds that's one hour and 7 minutes blasting straight at the panel, and then in the AAR you need to jot down the deviation of each shot in X and Y axis from the middle before you can start calculating the median (should be near-zero) and the standarddeviation.

Keep in mind that the result will have an additional dispersion error due to the recoil movement of the tank, which a thorough analysis will show as noticeable (though an order of magnitude smaller than the natural gun dispersion). On top of it are frame-rate dependent rounding errors as a limitation of our engine.

In my experience, thorough coordinate estimation takes about 30 seconds with about .2 mil accuracy, so translating the 500 impact locations into Excel will take another four and a half hours. So that's more or less an entire work day (with breaks) that is needed to analyze a single type of ammunition (with still a 5% error in it; with a sample of 4000 rounds you'll be much closer to the real value, but then you'll have to spend an entire week with this).

Have fun.