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BETA: AI Visual Detection Through Foliage

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I noticed that in the BETA version, the AI seems to be able to detect and engage targets located well inside the tree line. In previous revisions, units positioned 10 –20m inside the tree line were “hidden” from the AI. Now I’ve seen, (and experienced), BMPs and BMD’s engaging in long-range missile attacks against units located 100m inside the forest edge.

Is this a correction to previous behavior or something introduced by the change to the AI’s visual detection arc?

I’ve tried to reproduce some of these shots, substituting the Bradley for the BMPs, but even knowing where the target was located, I couldn’t even see the target, let along hit it through the foliage using either daylight or IR sights.

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What he said. What kind of foliage is it?? Single trees/bushes or the actual woods terrain type?

All it takes is a tiny speck of brightness in the TIS for me to start blasting away if I know no friendlies are in there. I wouldnt expect much less of the AI, although they do spot things better than humans at times, and other times they miss things they shouldnt.

Would it be possible to post a scenario where the two units start close to where this event happened?

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I believe it's been like that since SB1.... the AI can see through ground clutter (rocks included), irregardless of its size or density but like GH_Lieste pointed out, trees should block LOS.

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Would it be possible to post a scenario where the two units start close to where this event happened?

The scenario that prompted this inquiry is a modification of "TANKS!", substituting platoons of BMPs, BMDs, BDRM's, etc., for the OPFOR tanks and played with the LAV.

The only way I can beat it, pre BETA, is to dash from woods to woods. In the BETA version, I'm repeatedly killed by long-range missile shots, even when deep in the woods.

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If it is a resonably small scenario then you could probably save to an AAR and zip it to a small size. If so then that would help see what exactly is happening... or maybe some screen shots would be helpful as well.

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You can attach them here. How big is it? I can adjust some settings to make sure it works.

I'll check when I get home this evening.

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I'm repeatedly killed by long-range missile shots, even when deep in the woods.

It's curios that the missile is able to penetrate into the woodline without detonating against the trees. However, Deja made an almost impossible shot throught the woods in a TGIF game about a month ago.

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So far, in every single case that was well enough documented to investigate it, it showed that there actually WAS a line of sight between shooter and target. The problem is that the computer can immediately identify a single pixel as friend or foe. This was a necessary simplification to save computing time.

I acknowledge that it can be more than a mere nuisance, but I can't offer a quick fix. Eventually we will come to it when we find the time to implement neutrals/noncombatants and/or night combat. In both cases we will need to separate identification from detection, and as soon as that has been done the problem will go away without any further action on our end.

Until then you'll have to live with it.

Having said that, HE and HEAT rounds as well as missiles should NOT make it through trees. There is an abysmally low chance, so I expect to hear about it ONCE in my lifetime if at all, but if you observe it more than once and if you're SURE that it was a missile or HE or a HEAT round, this would be a strong indicator for a problem.

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I’m not questioning whether there was line-of-sight at some point in the engagement. It’s possible that the BETA situation is more realistic than the previous releases. I’m just noting that there seems to be a change. The scenario played with the pervious release was challenging, (for me), but winnable. With the BETA, it’s impossible, (for me with the LAV). I’m now trying, (so far unsuccessfully), the CV90.

In almost all cases, it’s the long-range missile shots while “hidden” in the trees that kills me. They just don’t seem to happen in the previous versions.

The two AAR’s that I have, (one with a LAV and one CV90), were both killed by ATGM’s while positioned in woods. In neither case, was the penetration of the missile through the foliage impossible.

I’ve uploaded the file, (it about 600KB), if someone what’s to look at what I’m referring to.

56e83c671c010_TanksProPe-Lav-pcS_zip.228

Tanks ProPe-Lav-pcS.zip

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OK, thanks for the AAR, that helps a lot. I just checked them out and it seems that in all cases the AI does have LOS to target. I was worried when you said that you were hit by an ATGM while you were deep in the woods since ATGMs should detonate when they fly through and hit a tree. However, from what I can see, there is just enough of a gap through the tall trees from where you are that the AI fired straight in and got you. Also, I notice that at 16:11 (in the CV9040 AAR) you made a similar shot on the AI through some trees so it is not impossible to do, and it is probably best that the AI can do it as well or the forest would be the "go to" place to hide from everything while the AI is picked one by one.

What has indeed changed (which is the difference that you are noticing) is that BMPs actually use their weapon systems now with the Beta. In the past it was noticed that BMPs hardly ever used their main gun and never used their ATGMs. This bug was fixed and, starting with the beta, BMPs are now a threat. I would suggest reducing the number of BMPs in that scenario because it was created / balanced with the old BMP behavior in mind. Over the years we have seen how some scenarios that were once winnable in SB1 and earlier versions of Pro PE are now impossible with the fixes and enhancements to the AI, so some balancing of many scenarios had to be done.

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Thanks for looking into it. However, my observation wasn't regarding the penetration of the missiles into the woods, but that the AI can now see me. Play the scenario under the previous version and then BETA and see if you notice a difference. Also, try reproducing the shot against the CV90 using the Bradley. I couldn’t even see the thing let alone hit it. I also noticed that I hear a lot more missiles detonating around me as I'm driving through the woods, (like the AI thinks I'm in the open)?

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Well, thats the question. In the past the AI was probably seeing you just fine. The enemy in that scenario are BMPs so I suspect that the AI saw you before and just did not fire because of the afore mentioned bug.

You could load up that scenario in the old version and change the BMPs to tanks and see if they shoot you. If they do then the problem is indeed with the BMP related aggression bug. If they don't then perhaps the AI is a little more aware of you when you are in the woods but, as mentioned, I don't think this is a bad thing.

BTW, I am not implying that there is no possibility for an error, just that there are a lot of things to consider before it can be pegged determining that the AI can just see better in the woods now.

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Additional: I played around with the scenario a bit and, at first glance, it looks ok to me. Looking at the scenario it is one PC versus 20 and you definately cannot get away with that after the BMP bug fix. The second you take a shot the other enemy vehicles are more or less made aware of your general location and now that BMPs are capable of using their main gun and ATGM, they actually engage. I suspect that what happened before is that they would stop and just watch you because the bug prevented them from firing.

But again, the only way for you to find out would be to edit the scenario in the previous version and change the enemy units to T-72s and change your vehicle to an M1 and see if they engage you in the forest.

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