Jump to content

Bradley Missile Launcher vs AI driver & other mild whines :)


ARM505

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

As a true test of the latest version, I fired up one of my least favourite scen's - defend Alam Halfa. I've always found this a terribly irritating scenario due to (to me) bad AI, not the actual premise of the scenario itself. Probably combined with my inability to shoot straight, but anyway :)

First, the latest addon is an excellent additon to the sim, really great work. I must at least mention that this has always been a consistently excellent sim which I always return to, notwithstanding the fact that most of this post may be interpreted as a whine.

Anyway, to business:

The 'Alam Halfa Pass' scenario

http://www.steelbeasts.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/267/p13_fileid/759

Now done at night I see, which I thought would make it easier for me, ha ha. Difficulty 'medium' although given my half-arsed skills I should have it on easy :)

- The manually raised/lowered TOW launcher in the Brad is getting damaged every so often by tiny little shuffles made by the AI driver when moving in a battle position. I realise charging over open terrain with the launcher up is bad, but surely small movements are ok? Also, I have no control over the little movements the driver makes whilst in a prepared position, other than constantly telling him to stop/go manually, so it was a bit of a pain to have the driver blip forward a little, and getting the 'Missile launcher' text. This didn't happen all the time though, just...(mental counting) only twice actually. The second one had an awesome view of the battlefield, and was kind of a last ditch guy, who needed his launcher to be of any use to his mates below him. This happened while I wasn't even crewing that IFV, he was just sitting in his trench. Is anyone else seeing this? P.S. Very nice changes to the Brad, more immersive now.

- T-80U's are routinely achieving hits from 2800m, at night, cross country, on the move on an M1A1 in the rearmost position of the prepared trench (they were to my direct front, hence they could shoot me, and I could shoot back from that position - still, I should be a damn small target). Luckily it mostly fails to penetrate, but I, on the other hand (and the AI gunner) battle to hit them at all. I can barely make out that they're tanks at that range. And the almost constant impact of rounds doesn't help either. Also, the missile armed BRDM-2 AT's have night vision apparently, I thought they didn't - doh! Again, they have zero problems hitting vehicles in prepared positions, despite the fact that to me, they're only a tiny blurry jumble of pixels in my sights.

- This is more of a question - once the AI has decided to reload, do they actually stop if a valid target presents itself? It seems that they pass up easy shots if they happen to be reloading - subjective, maybe I'm wrong. I tried this scenario with Leo's, absolute disaster - they all get slaughtered when they reload. At least the M1 still keeps the pointy end forward during a reload, even if it does take several decades to do it.

- AI behaviour in prepared positions - prepared positions have, to me, always been only one step above useless in SB (and a very small step at that). As mentioned above, the AI still pastes you anway, an unpleasantly large view of your weaker armour is given when moving up and down between the so-called 'hull down' rear side of the trench (ha ha, 'hull down'), your tank's ROF is dramatically reduced due to moving around all the time, and watching the AAR, rounds still seem to go through the sides of the berms around you anyway (maybe realistic of course, but still contributes to these things being a complete fail, in SB at least). The AI does odd things in them too - failing to move to the forward position despite having 'Fire at will' and viable targets in front of them, reloading in the front position, a little bit of moving around by the AI driver when trying to aim. No big deal normally, I just hate those trenches :)

- Rocks. Yes, I should just edit them out. And it's not like this hasn't been mentioned before. At least they're not the stone-cold killers they were before (terrible pun), but vehicles still become physically trapped (ie even I, rather than the AI, cannot get them out) in situation where the visual representation shows plenty of space to move around in. Irritating when you are trying to decide how to move, and you can't make a decision based on what you can see.

Anway, back to shooting at things again. :) Thanks Esim for an excellent sim. Gripes and all...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 51
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Members

Emplacements can be stretched to have the rear end connect to some dip in the terrain that allows a concealed move out of them, but of course placing the emplacements right is of paramount importance. SB's computer control logic cannot compensate for fundamentally flawed placement of positions.

Likewise, if your Leopards all get slaughtered during reload, maybe your tactics are to blame. Only half a platoon should perform the reload at a time, and in defilade - if possible. Not saying that the autonomopus behavior of our tanks has no room for improvement, but there are things that the user can do to reduce the tactical impact of these blunders.

TOW launchers are pretty fragile when elevated. I agree though that the driver shouldn't shuffle around too much while the launcher is up. We do have grace margins that appeared sufficient in beta testing - e.g. damage will occur only if the launcher is more than 50% up, and only if the vehicle speed exceeds 5kph.

Roger that about the BRDM-2/AT's night vision capability. We shall investigate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My tactics almost certainly suck :) And I also realise that this scenario is, given it's flat terrain and extremely bottlenecked escape route, is mostly a 'fight in place until the death' kind of thing. On top of this, the emplacements are almost all placed in the middle of nowhere, in open ground, with no escape. The best outcome I've managed for this scenario could be described as having fought to a bloody standstill, losing one of the fuel tankers.

On my second proper playthrough, I again got two missile launcher casualties (different vehicles to first time around), these however occured while I was not crewing the vehicle so I cannot say for certain that it was not due to enemy fire. Both vehicles were in emplacements.

Having said that, and my terrible tactics aside, there are certain things that I cannot seem to do to mitigate the effects of, for example, reloading.

Firstly, the AI may continue reloading while his wingman is being shredded right in front of him. He correctly decides that he himself has not been shot at, so reloads. Meanwhile, his buddy is being perforated, but he doesn't seem to wake up and stop reloading. Since he decided to start reloading by himself, I'm at a loss as to how to effectively control reloading myself, short of jumping from tank to tank to make sure they're all behaving. I agree that this scenario is a bit unfair in testing this aspect however, since you face a myriad of targets, from long range (so you run dry fast), with zero cover other than your emplacement. So perhaps I'm being unreasonable. It would be nice if the AI could ask itself 'Could I support somebody who is in trouble, despite my need to reload?' A tough one to code, no doubt.

The second aspect is worth looking at however. Whilst in an emplacement, despite the incredibly small target you present, you are still easily hit by the AI.

M1 (in rear position of emplacement) struck by T72 (at night, on the move), range greater than 2500m:

SS_12_56_13.jpg

My tanks aspect, as presented to the T72 (taken from very close range, with perfect mission editor TIS):

SS_12_56_02.jpg

M3A2 (again, in rear position of emplacement) struck by T72, again at night, on the move, from about 2500m:

SS_12_54_54.jpg

Aspect presented:

SS_12_54_05.jpg

So, even in cover (if an emplacement can be called that, and I agree they aren't impossible shots), the I find the AI to be incredibly accurate. Especially now that we get to try and be T72 gunners ourselves. These shots would have been exceptionally difficult for a human, IMHO. And whilst they certainly don't hit with every shot, it's not like it's a one off event either. Once they notice you and start hitting, then it's a steady rain of metal. Hence the rapid death of the Leopards, since even if you are in the best cover available in this scenario, you will still be hit while reloading. Again, it's perhaps an artificial test. I'd like the engineers to dig deeper holes please!

Anyway, just mentioning it, no comments required other than if anybody else has something similar that might help. I'm sure the AI behaviour gets tweaked all the time. Thanks again for the additions, I'm going to play scenarios more to my level now :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That T-80U incident you described, got my attention.

Is it really realistic that a tank that now has no more night vision capability in the sim, can optically track and hit with daysights a covered target 2800 m away - in night's darkness, and while on the move? I cannot imagine that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hijacking the thread speaking of the Bradley launcher.. When you reload, and pop into TC view to look around, and jump back into gunner seat, it says 'dynamic lead disabled' or something like that.. and the only way i found to get control back of the gunner sight, is jump out of gunner place and back. Is that a bug, of is it some easy way out of it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In testing the T72, I, in one engagement, got into a long-range gun duel with a Leo 2, exchanging shots at 3700m. At that range, I was shooting at muzzle flashes.

I hit it three - THREE - times and killed it.

The point here not that I am some sort of gunnery god, but that once you know where a target is, if it is kind enough to stay stationary, you can hit it from very far away even as a human in a T72.

The one real artificiality in this case was the CC was giving me perfect corrections to fall of shot where a human CC would have struggled to see the impacts at that range. I was using a single point of aim and making manual range adjustments to the FCS, using bracketing techniques to get on target. It works.

Is the AI gunner unrealistically good? Perhaps. But the bigger sin here is sitting in one spot, in the open, exposed to gunfire.

Just because there are static positions there doesn't mean you have to use them.

DG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to say i hate the fact that te tow gets damaged once u start moving. Having been on a bradley, I've never had it get damaged when it was up, even when going faster than 10 mph (happened many times when i was a roookie gunner) I dont think it wrong to have it, but there needs to be some more leeway to compensate for when the ai driver decides to take off and move on his own without my knowing it. By time i realize it, cause im busy engaging a target, the tow launcher is damaged. I could see the boresight going off a bit though but dont think it would be plausible to add that to the simulation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Hijacking the thread speaking of the Bradley launcher.. When you reload, and pop into TC view to look around, and jump back into gunner seat, it says 'dynamic lead disabled' or something like that.. and the only way i found to get control back of the gunner sight, is jump out of gunner place and back. Is that a bug, of is it some easy way out of it?

Which vehicle are you talking about?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the screenshots posted above, both friendly targets were hit by a T72M1 while in the rearmost position of the trench, not in the open (although not completely covered of course). Both were on 'hold fire' orders, so as far as I can tell, had not fired in the recent past. The T72 had recently crested the hill to the west, and was seeing my positions for the first time. I say 'seeing', but it was night time of course. The T72 was also on the move, in formation with it's platoon. Also, this scenario (as mentioned) has little to offer as cover except the static positions, although a more skilled tactician can certainly come up with a better plan than I! My queries were based on the technical challenge (and therefore realism) of making these particular shots, more than the fact that I was somehow expecting to win the battle, or somehow not get killed at all while sitting still in a trench.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You did notice that the shots where comming in from the flank?

And seeing the destoyed vehicles in front of the BPs...they have allready fired their guns?

In that way the BP are allready compromised, I don't know the way SB models C&C for the AI, but its plausible that the T-72 allready "knew" that there are tanks ax grid XXX XXX.

Question: where you in higher/lower/ equal position to the T-72s? (you cant really see that as the height lines are not marked)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the 3.5km range is a problem with T-72. IIRC we shot moving live fire target (and hit it too) from 2,5km when I was in the FDF. I also recall us shooting and hitting a Hughes MD-500 chopper from similar range with Saab training systems laser simulator.

Things do get difficult in dark and when moving which, I think, makes such a shot pretty much impossible. For longer range shots we were trained to do it WW2 style and slow down or even stop for shots. Also IIRC the night sights were only good for about kilometer (give or take few hundred meters either way :) ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
M2A2, happens everytime I jump to TC view and back while loading missile

Hm well did you try to reenable "normal" fire control mode? The AI gunner switches it to "manual" while reloading.. the "manual drive" light on the control panel should be lit up..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Returning to the T-80U and hitting targets 2700m away at night, I googled a bit, and amongst others found the German wikipedia and this text describing the fire control system:

Das 1A45-Feuerleitsystem ist mit dem Stabilisierungssystem 2Eh42 sowie dem Ballistik-Computer 1W528 ausgerüstet. Der Richtschütze verfügt über ein in zwei Ebenen blickfeldstabilisiertes periskopisches Zielfernrohr 1G46 (Irtysch) mit Laser-E-Messer sowie der 9S515-Lenkeinheit für die Lenkwaffenanlage 9M119 REFLEKS (Rakete 9M119 INVAR). Ein stabilisiertes aktiv/passives Infrarotzielfernrohr vom Typ TPN-4 Buran-PA mit einer Verbindung zu einem Monitor für den Kommandanten ist ebenfalls vorhanden. Nachts ist der Feuerkampf auf eine maximale Kampfentfernung von bis zu 1300 m möglich. Das Feuerleitsystem umfasst eine digitale ballistische Rechnereinheit sowie Umweltsensoren.

Der Kommandant verfügt über eine drehbare Kuppel und fünf Winkelspiegel sowie ein vertikal stabilisiertes Periskop TKN-4S mit Tag- und passivem Infrarotnachtkanal. Der Kommandant kann dem Richtschützen Ziele übergeben und selbständig die Führung der Bewaffnung übernehmen.

Since I read on this board some days ago, or in the release notes, that the night vision capability in the T-80U has been taken away in 2.640, this tank reaching out with precise fire 2700m and at night definitely smells fishy. I mean even a thermal display makes it extremely difficult to see a target that far away, even more so when the silhouette does not pop up against the night sky, but melts with the landscape behind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Having said that, and my terrible tactics aside, there are certain things that I cannot seem to do to mitigate the effects of, for example, reloading.

...I'm at a loss as to how to effectively control reloading myself

As the platoon leader, use the F1 view and look at the lower right corner. Left-click the vehicle icons of your platoon for the context menu and issue a reload command (or the command to stop reloading). This may already help. If you split the platoon into two sections, you can still issue commands to the other section that way. For example, you could give the order to hold fire before giving the reload command. That way the section will pull back into low defilade before rotating their turrets. Once that they are done with the reload, you need of course give them the command to fire at will. Then you give the Hold Fire command to your own section and perform the reload while the other section provides overwatch and (some) cover.

It's not perfect, but may already be helpful in your specific situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
The second aspect is worth looking at however. Whilst in an emplacement, despite the incredibly small target you present, you are still easily hit by the AI.

M1 (in rear position of emplacement) struck by T72 (at night, on the move), range greater than 2500m:

While I agree that this isn't great, it must be seen in the context that night combat still is officially no capability of Steel Beasts, and you are observing the consequence of an intermediary compromise that we made.

You are invisible at night until you open fire. At that point your muzzle flash will reveal you. Now, this in itself isn't problematic, except that you will remain visible to the opposing side - at least until you break LOS again. Which, in this specific scenario, you can't. It's on The List for further refinement, and I will not claim SB Pro to be capable of simulating night combat until we have a better behavior for that, and a long list of other elements.

Right now, all that we say is that SB Pro offers day/night transitions to allow you to start a scenario at "first light", or to put a player under time pressure to conclude a combat operation before darkness falls.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
I'd like the engineers to dig deeper holes please!

A possible source of error: If the scenario was originally made for a different tank type, have you checked in the mission editor that the emplacements are made for the Leopards, or whatever other tank you have in other variants of the scenario?

Finally, what you could try during reloads is to pop smoke before pulling back. Or to call for smoke artillery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Having been on a bradley, I've never had it get damaged when it was up, even when going faster than 10 mph (happened many times when i was a roookie gunner) I dont think it wrong to have it, but there needs to be some more leeway to compensate for when the ai driver decides to take off and move on his own without my knowing it.

Okay, we will certainly consider that for future updates if there is some consensus among the Bradley experts here that the current implementation is too harsh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I agree that this isn't great, it must be seen in the context that night combat still is officially no capability of Steel Beasts, and you are observing the consequence of an intermediary compromise that we made.

You are invisible at night until you open fire. At that point your muzzle flash will reveal you. Now, this in itself isn't problematic, except that you will remain visible to the opposing side - at least until you break LOS again. Which, in this specific scenario, you can't. It's on The List for further refinement, and I will not claim SB Pro to be capable of simulating night combat until we have a better behavior for that, and a long list of other elements.

Right now, all that we say is that SB Pro offers day/night transitions to allow you to start a scenario at "first light", or to put a player under time pressure to conclude a combat operation before darkness falls.

Ah, that clears the T-80U issue for me. It might then be helpful to tell people wanting to do night-combat to reduce the viewing range to 1500 m, which should effect the T-80U pretty much like the number they gave in the passage I quoted above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
I have to say i hate the fact that te tow gets damaged once u start moving. Having been on a bradley, I've never had it get damaged when it was up, even when going faster than 10 mph (happened many times when i was a roookie gunner) I dont think it wrong to have it, but there needs to be some more leeway to compensate for when the ai driver decides to take off and move on his own without my knowing it. By time i realize it, cause im busy engaging a target, the tow launcher is damaged. I could see the boresight going off a bit though but dont think it would be plausible to add that to the simulation.

In regards to the launcher damage, we took the data right out of the field manual and from the brains of some Bradley experts we have on the team. Actually, the current behavior in which it gets damaged is very much dumbed down with a high tolerance, believe it or not -- lots of generosity has been given to it over the direct interpretation from the field manual, until we reached some middle ground.

First of all, the launcher can never be damaged if it is lower than 2/3rd elevation, and it has a five second continuous driving over a generous speed (compared to the FM's listing of the maximum speed allowed) before damage occurs. All your really need to do is press CTRL+Z when the vehicle starts moving (at any speed) and it will never get damaged, and what we have to learn now is to do this every time the vehicle starts moving so that it becomes second nature (or jump out to the F8 view and let the AI gunner do it).

As far as I can tell, launcher damage right now occurs only when you carelessly forget to lower it, because you might be sitting in the gunner's position instructing the vehicle to move or not lowering it because the AI driver moves out. That is part of the duty of the actual gunner after all (to remember to lower it). ;)

The other issue is, "Slow speed" -- the slowest speed the vehicle can go without actually sitting in the driver's position and driving it manually, depends on the terrain. If someone says "vehicle should be able to drive 10 kph before damage" well, it is irrelevant. The speed will likely go well over 10 kph on slow speed, unless you are driving up a hill for example. For this reason, there is certainly a tolerance of speed (which I mentioned, is twice that of the FM's stated "safe" speed), but it is mostly based on time. Five seconds of continuous driving, with launcher over 2/3rds raised. This could be moved to 10 seconds, or so, but regardless, launcher damage would still occur if it occurs now: you are simply forgetting to lower it.

Again, this stuff would be better in the Support Forum too. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the key issue is that it was the CC driver that caused the move. That's the disturbing part.

If a player controls the driving, and breaks the launcher because he forgot: lesson learned. But if I'm in the gunner's seat and the mook at the helm moves when he's not supposed to...that's bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
I think the key issue is that it was the CC driver that caused the move. That's the disturbing part.

If a player controls the driving, and breaks the launcher because he forgot: lesson learned. But if I'm in the gunner's seat and the mook at the helm moves when he's not supposed to...that's bad.

Well, tell the driver to stop moving with S or press CTRL+Z. The driver is supposed to move on his own to follow a route he has been given (as he does on all other vehicles) unless you actively tell him what to do with the keys, unless I am missing the point? If you aren't in control of the vehicle, then S should tell the driver to stop already, and/or the TC user has to do that, again, no different than other vehicles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...