Bradley Missile Launcher vs AI driver & other mild whines :)

[Volcano]

Ok, I will explain how it works right now so to make it more clear on how to avoid it:

Option 1:

You can jump to F8 view or F7 TC position, and you never have to worry about the launcher getting damaged because the AI gunner will lower it (basically, if you not in the gunner position, it behaves as it did before and the AI gunner is Johnny on the spot). You also don't have to worry about whether the position is level or not, because the gunner won't raise it again unless he is level. Once you got to a position that is a level firing platform, the AI will raise the launcher. Jump into the gunner's position and gun. If you do that, you avoid the whole issue.

Option 2:

If you sit in the Gunner's position all the time however, then you have to worry about all of these things yourself (that is the point of the feature). You either have to tell the driver to stop, or you have to press SHIFT+Z once the vehicle starts moving to lower it.

So the basic condition for damage is:

While human is in gunner position and launcher is > 2/3rds raised, damage occurs if

Continuous movement of > 5 mph (from the manual) for greater than 5 continuous seconds

If you manage to press SHIFT+Z once you start moving, however fast you end up going, the launcher will never get damaged because it only takes a second to get in the "safety zone" (2/3rds lowered). Theoretically, you could drive at any speed for 3 to 4 seconds with launcher full raised (to move to a firing position for example), then stop, then move again for a couple of seconds, and so on and never get damage. As mentioned, you can also go immediately to top speed and press SHIFT+Z and also not worry about launcher damage, provided that you don't press SHIFT+Q to raise it again while you are driving).

Should it be 10 seconds, or 8 seconds, is open for debate. But the idea was to keep the user from hitting the gas and going full speed for 8 to 10 seconds then slam on the brakes and repeat. The current behavior is generous in that as long as the launcher is going down and not fully seated (> 2/3rds lowered) then it will never be damaged. The M2 Bradley field manual states that the vehicle should not move at > 5 mph unless the launcher is FULLY seated otherwise launcher damage will/could result, so, we have a great deal of leeway currently.

So either this is something the gunner has to get used to and lower the launcher immediately, or tell the driver to stop. The same issue exists on the T-72 really, the gunner must press V to reload the gun and sometimes he forgets to. It only takes a few frustrating times for that to happen until it becomes second nature.

Note: In Network Sessions where connection might be overloaded, you may actually (just my theory) damage your launcher before you are notified of it. The Host machine may determine that it was damaged, then once the network clears up you get the damage notification. When something like this happens, it might appear as if it was damaged for no reason. Just something to keep in mind for overloaded network sessions...

Edited December 16, 2011 by Volcano

[sabot_ready]

Note to self..... key bind W and shift-Z

[DrDevice]

Understand on the "how not to damage the launcher." The OP just pointed out that when in a BP, and given "engage" orders, the driver will naturally seek to go turret-down on reload, which seems to be the issue.

i.e. the condition is not that the human is ordering a move, it's that the BP behavior for the driver seems to be causing the conflict.

[Volcano]

Understand on the "how not to damage the launcher." The OP just pointed out that when in a BP, and given "engage" orders, the driver will naturally seek to go turret-down on reload, which seems to be the issue.

i.e. the condition is not that the human is ordering a move, it's that the BP behavior for the driver seems to be causing the conflict.

Right, and either the human gunner should press S, SHIFT+Z, or F8 in that situation. SHIFT+Z to allow the movement to continue and the BP behavior to continue, S to break the BP behavior and have the human gunner (if he owns the Bradley) to control the behavior himself, F8 to let the AI gunner figure it all out.

[Gibsonm]

I think we are now approaching the point where the modelling almost needs all the seats to be crewed by people.

In an all human crew, the driver wouldn't move before the commander gave his orders and those orders would provide the queues for both gunner and driver.

Here we appear to have a choice of:

1. Fully man it with people (unlikely in most MP sessions).

2. By all means have AI commander and driver but then the human gunner has to know what to do and do it in the right sequence.

3. Go to F8 (at least for the adjustments) and let the AI crew do the drills as required.

[Retro]

I don't think that the driver has an indicator if the turret is up?

[Volcano]

I don't think that the driver has an indicator if the turret is up?

Nope, his indicator is the gunner telling him to stop (simulated with the S key).

Maybe the latest M2/M3 has it in the driver's digital panel though...

[RENEGADE-623]

im not saying it wont get damaged, as I know it will, but not as fast as the manual states. I have moved in my brad with tow up many times and nothing happened to it, of course wasnt going at excessive speed either, but in game im in gunners spot engaging a target with 25mm and ia for some reason moves even tho has no movement orders, i dont notice it right away cause im engaging, next thing i know i have a damaged tow. I think making it 10 seconds would suffice for game purposes tho. that should give us ample time to realize we are moving and hurry up and lower tow for those of us actively engaging

[Tacbat]

Note to self..... key bind W and shift-Z

LOL, and S + shift-Q.

[DrDevice]

Nope, his indicator is the gunner telling him to stop (simulated with the S key).

The key takeaway here is that if you are under Engage orders, in the gunner seat, and you are planning on using a TOW, you should override the driver with the "stop" key, to prevent mis-communication on when the launcher is up or down.

Don't let the CC driver screw up the sequence by backing up.

[Chaplain]

It's also true that in the real vehicle, the gunner would feel the vehicle start to move and yell, "Stop!" The gunner in SB, using high mag while engaging a long range target, might not notice his vehicle moving until it is too late.

[Volcano]

The key takeaway here is that if you are under Engage orders, in the gunner seat, and you are planning on using a TOW, you should override the driver with the "stop" key, to prevent mis-communication on when the launcher is up or down.

Don't let the CC driver screw up the sequence by backing up.

I don't get it. So S key is not stopping the driver? If you are hanging around an automated engage tactic taking a hands off approach, then yes the driver may move and you have to keep that in mind by pressing SHIFT+Z/Q at the appropriate time. Otherwise, S should stop the driver's automated battle drill however and he shouldn't move an inch after that, just like it does on any other vehicle, and C will resume it (if on a route) or E to make a whole new BP order.

If S is not stopping the driver, and the human owns the vehicle, then there would be a bug there. Otherwise, as with everything else, it is up to the user to control the situation if he is inside the vehicle.

[RENEGADE-623]

It's also true that in the real vehicle, the gunner would feel the vehicle start to move and yell, "Stop!" The gunner in SB, using high mag while engaging a long range target, might not notice his vehicle moving until it is too late.

True, in my time as a driver and as gunner and commander, gunner was trained to raise tow each time you stop, and lower it when u move, of course, but our drivers standard sop before he moved was to ask if tow was down. I did it when I was a driver and I had my drivers do it when i was a guinner and when i was a commander

[Volcano]

im not saying it wont get damaged, as I know it will, but not as fast as the manual states. I have moved in my brad with tow up many times and nothing happened to it, of course wasnt going at excessive speed either, but in game im in gunners spot engaging a target with 25mm and ia for some reason moves even tho has no movement orders, i dont notice it right away cause im engaging, next thing i know i have a damaged tow. I think making it 10 seconds would suffice for game purposes tho. that should give us ample time to realize we are moving and hurry up and lower tow for those of us actively engaging

Maybe so, or it will result in the same damage just five seconds later. As I mentioned, we are already quite generous according to the manual and we have had real Bradley crew input. IRL it certainly depends on the circumstances and intangibles on whether damage would actually happen, but we can't really operate in that realm without making it overly complicated. It may change to be more tolerant in the future (maybe 8 seconds of movement), sure, but as it is it is better to work on good habits and you can avoid the damage altogether.

As for the driver not moving unless the gunner tells him, as I said, just press S when in the gunner's seat to be sure before you do anything else. Press C to have the driver continue his route/behavior -- and there you end up with the driver not moving unless he is told he is able to.

[ARM505]

I'd just like to quietly chip in that the first time it happened to me was while occupying the gunner seat, in the forward position of the trench, while trying to track a target prior to launching. As I was trying to track the target, the AI driver made little 'shuffles' forward and back. Really no more than twitches. Then I got the damage warning text. I confess to not looking in the AAR at that particular incident, I attributed it to the new damage model for the launcher. Only a little while after did I think, 'hey, that's a bit sensitive'. So it's possible it was shot, but I never heard rounds passing, or a hit sound.

The other three occurrences where while the vehicle was completely under AI control, whilst in trenches, so I don't really know how they were moving, or whether they were shot. Again, doofus here didn't look at the AAR, I just assumed movement damage. I guess I would suck as a beta tester. Maybe lets just wait and see how often this gets to be an issue with the majority.

Edit to add - thanks for the explanation re: Night combat, that would explain what was happening.

[Volcano]

I'd just like to quietly chip in that the first time it happened to me was while occupying the gunner seat, in the forward position of the trench, while trying to track a target prior to launching. As I was trying to track the target, the AI driver made little 'shuffles' forward and back. Really no more than twitches. Then I got the damage warning text. I confess to not looking in the AAR at that particular incident, I attributed it to the new damage model for the launcher. Only a little while after did I think, 'hey, that's a bit sensitive'. So it's possible it was shot, but I never heard rounds passing, or a hit sound.

The other three occurrences where while the vehicle was completely under AI control, whilst in trenches, so I don't really know how they were moving, or whether they were shot. Again, doofus here didn't look at the AAR, I just assumed movement damage. I guess I would suck as a beta tester. Maybe lets just wait and see how often this gets to be an issue with the majority.

Ah yes, well, be sure to check the AAR next time. However, the launcher can easily be shot and damaged -- the ARM file is quite advanced in that regard (shooting either the arm or raised launcher will cause it).

Also no one is ruling out a bug, I am just trying to help establish good habits to avoid the damage. Believe me, during testing we were damaging the launcher all the time, then we moved away from a literal field manual damage approach as it was too restrictive, to a more flexible approach and then we got accustomed to it. As mentioned, tolerance may be tweaked in future updates, who knows, but it doesn't seem unreasonable after you know how to avoid it.

[cobrabase]

I have to say i hate the fact that te tow gets damaged once u start moving. Having been on a bradley, I've never had it get damaged when it was up, even when going faster than 10 mph (happened many times when i was a roookie gunner) I dont think it wrong to have it, but there needs to be some more leeway to compensate for when the ai driver decides to take off and move on his own without my knowing it. By time i realize it, cause im busy engaging a target, the tow launcher is damaged. I could see the boresight going off a bit though but dont think it would be plausible to add that to the simulation.

Second that.... it got plenty frustrating in a fight a few days ago....

Edited December 17, 2011 by cobrabase

[Volcano]

Second that.... it got plenty frustrating in a fight a few days ago....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPe0HWmGUVM

(Re: the video rant) Seriously?

If you can produce a scenario where a TOW launcher gets damaged for no reason (without any human interference, no human in gunner's position) then we would love to see it.

What we DON'T need are screaming ranting YouTube videos. What we do need are examples with a description on how it gets damaged *on its own*.

[cobrabase]

(Re: the video rant) Seriously?

If you can produce a scenario where a TOW launcher gets damaged for no reason (without any human interference, no human in gunner's position) then we would love to see it.

What we DON'T need are screaming ranting YouTube videos. What we do need are examples with a description on how it gets damaged *on its own*.

You're right, I'm making it all up. I'll try to reproduce the results for you.

[Ssnake]

Well, I don't think that Volcano suggested that you were making this up. But if we don't see this, and you do, the only thing that helps us to identify what is happening is a cool-headed analysis. That means to observe, and to document, so that hopefully we can replicate the behavior that you are experiencing.

[cobrabase]

Well, I don't think that Volcano suggested that you were making this up. But if we don't see this, and you do, the only thing that helps us to identify what is happening is a cool-headed analysis. That means to observe, and to document, so that hopefully we can replicate the behavior that you are experiencing.

I know... I know....

The most likely scenario is that you program a set of waypoints to get to an observation location. The bradley stops at the location and instantly starts to raise the Tow launcher. Usually a firing location has to be tweeked. I think that we all get to the location and then the A.I. driver moves slightly doing the damage (or I'm sure the player can do the same thing). Can we have a toggle to NOT automatically raise the mast? I understand the training aspect of REMEMBERING to lower before moving so that's cool... it's the auto raise that might simply be the cause of the headache.

*ADDITION*

Okay - it just happened. Was playing "Are they attacking here? (M1a1). My 2 brads reached the engagement waypoint. We stopped for a good 3 seconds. I went to the gunner's seat. I heard the tow launcher cranking. I was fooling to see if I could manually hit the switch while it was cranking up to bring it back down again... the Bradley moved on it's own (despite having reached the tactical point) and I get a damage indicator.

[Volcano]

I know... I know....

The most likely scenario is that you program a set of waypoints to get to an observation location. The bradley stops at the location and instantly starts to raise the Tow launcher. Usually a firing location has to be tweeked. I think that we all get to the location and then the A.I. driver moves slightly doing the damage (or I'm sure the player can do the same thing). Can we have a toggle to NOT automatically raise the mast? I understand the training aspect of REMEMBERING to lower before moving so that's cool... it's the auto raise that might simply be the cause of the headache.

*ADDITION*

Okay - it just happened. Was playing "Are they attacking here? (M1a1). My 2 brads reached the engagement waypoint. We stopped for a good 3 seconds. I went to the gunner's seat. I heard the tow launcher cranking. I was fooling to see if I could manually hit the switch while it was cranking up to bring it back down again... the Bradley moved on it's own (despite having reached the tactical point) and I get a damage indicator.

Well, if that is the case then it isn't a case of the Bradley damaging it on its own then as your video suggests. Your video suggests that you jump into the Bradley and the launchers are all damaged already, as if you haven't been in there before to contribute to the damage. If that is the case then we certainly want to know.

Anyways, regarding this particular post above:

Read the previous posts, that covers this: I would suggest pressing S to tell the AI driver to stop, waypoint or not, if you are in the gunner's position. Press C to continue the route. Press SHIFT+Q and SHIFT+Z to raise and lower the launcher, and so on and so forth.

[cobrabase]

Well, if that is the case then it isn't a case of the Bradley damaging it on its own then as your video suggests. Your video suggests that you jump into the Bradley and the launchers are all damaged already, as if you haven't been in there before to contribute to the damage. If that is the case then we certainly want to know.

Anyways, regarding this particular post above:

Read the previous posts, that covers this: I would suggest pressing S to tell the AI driver to stop, waypoint or not, if you are in the gunner's position. Press C to continue the route. Press SHIFT+Q and SHIFT+Z to raise and lower the launcher, and so on and so forth.

So far twice tonight I have "jumped into" a bradley that has moved into its own position and I arrive to a broken Tow launcher. I'm not smearing, hating, or blasting you guys or the sim... please understand that.

[dejawolf]

So far twice tonight I have "jumped into" a bradley that has moved into its own position and I arrive to a broken Tow launcher. I'm not smearing, hating, or blasting you guys or the sim... please understand that.

well, can you explain exactly what you did to arrive for that broken tow launcher?

which positions you jumped into, etc.

[Volcano]

So far twice tonight I have "jumped into" a bradley that has moved into its own position and I arrive to a broken Tow launcher. I'm not smearing, hating, or blasting you guys or the sim... please understand that.

Well, also understand that the information isn't really useful unless you can show us how it happens. Have you checked the AAR to see if enemy fire knocked out the launcher? Where you in the vehicle before it got damaged and returned to it later? Was it a single player scenario or multiplayer? Can you provide the scenario and/or the AAR, mission report (html), just about anything would be helpful.

We can't really go in with a hammer and start changing code without specifics to first determine if it is bug or not. Besides that, we can't help but think that a lot of this comes down to people not understanding how it works/and or not being used to it getting damaged. We suffered the same issue during tests but adapted to it (this is why I am taking the time to explain the behavior).