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Canadian LAVIII Coys


Kingtiger
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and life gets confusing fast.

Kidding me? =D

B echelon, isn't that the unarmoured support units, kinda logistics guys? what is a 2IC in a TANK doing with unarmoured support units? must look kinda out of place.

So Tk Sqn Tac HQ consist of OC, BC and Dozer, and if FOO is attached the FOO to? and the 2IC is with the B Echelon and therefor totally out of combat (and in my scenario, outside the scenario)

I have solved my C/S issue with the Tk vs Inf by having the Inf as A Coy and Tk as C Coy, so I wont have issues with Tango - Victor. That would probleby mess up the players head anyway in the scenario if they aren't used to Commonwealth C/S structure.

Aaaand. I have reversed back to 3 plt/Coy. 4 plt/coy increased the nightmare AI scripting is :debile2:

Doesn't Canadians have the long barrel? because then LEO 2E is more suited. but if its the short barrel then Leo2A5 is better i guess.

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6. The FOO is not an integral part of the sqn nor the coy - he (or she) is an attachment. Depending on which battery the FOO comes from, C/S will be (1-3)(1-3) so 11, 23, 32 are all legit. Because they are attached, the "Golf" arm indicator is used, so G12

While we're on the topic of arm indicators, the combat team net controlling station is probably the Coy CP, so all the Sqn callsigns will be prefixed with the "Tango" arm indicator - unless the Tank Sqn comes from a different Sqn letter than the Coy. If the callsigns don't step on each other, sometimes they'll get lazy and drop the arm indicator.

So if the tank sqn is "A" and the inf coy is the first in the battalion (would normally be "A" but the coys are lettered sequentially in the regiment - don't ask) then both would be C/S "1" and life gets confusing fast. The arm indicator deconflicts. If the tank sqn is "B" and the inf coy is the first in the battalion, then the tanks are "2" and the coy is "1" and you can get away without using the arm indicator.

DG

Don't confuse the guy too much. :)

He's after the symbology for the vehicles on the map.

We at least don't use arm indicators on map symbology because the mil sybol tells me if its a Tango, Victor, Uniform, Foxtrot, Golf, etc.

So a Tk symbol on the battle map only gets "11".

On the radio they rate "T11". :)

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well, the tango/Victor stuff I know about actually, think it was Irish who teached me that in ARRC days. but Golf is attachments i think, but Foxtrot and Uniform are new to me?

and about confusing me, yeah you are doing a good job on that, Im working on a excel spreadsheet to figure it all out :D

But there will be radio chatter so that will come into play as well, but as I have different Coy names I don't have to worry about Tango/Victor in the text. (I believe?)

This is a pretty great (and big) learning experience, but I like it :)

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well, the tango/Victor stuff I know about actually, think it was Irish who teached me that in ARRC days. but Golf is attachments i think, but Foxtrot and Uniform are new to me?

Foxtrot = Infantry (all types)

Uniform = APCs

Used when you don't have dedicated APCs (a la "Mech").

"Empty" APC unit RVs with leg Inf and gives them a lift to somewhere and then goes on their way.

We use "Foxtrot" for Leg, Mot, Mech Inf.

and about confusing me, yeah you are doing a good job on that, I'm working on a excel spreadsheet to figure it all out :D

But there will be radio chatter so that will come into play as well, but as I have different Coy names I don't have to worry about Tango/Victor in the text. (I believe?)

Well if you did have them you could use it in the "Test" part of that call sign template.

But is a bit of overkill since I can't make "A" Sqn of Tks, "A" Sqn of Recce and "A" Coy of Inf. They have to be sequential "A", "B" and "C" so the text doesn't matter.

I'd be using the "G" for the Arty FOO vehicle though.

This is a pretty great (and big) learning experience, but I like it :)

Well you are getting multinational perspective (which aren't exactly identical) on a reasonably complex topic. :)

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Foxtrot = Infantry (all types)

Uniform = APCs

Used when you don't have dedicated APCs (a la "Mech").

"Empty" APC unit RVs with leg Inf and gives them a lift to somewhere and then goes on their way.

We use "Foxtrot" for Leg, Mot, Mech Inf.

Well if you did have them you could use it in the "Test" part of that call sign template.

But is a bit of overkill since I can't make "A" Sqn of Tks, "A" Sqn of Recce and "A" Coy of Inf. They have to be sequential "A", "B" and "C" so the text doesn't matter.

I'd be using the "G" for the Arty FOO vehicle though.

Well you are getting multinational perspective (which aren't exactly identical) on a reasonably complex topic. :)

What may work better is giving the tanks a Tango indicator (T11) ad the grunts a India (I11) and so on.

The letter denoting the arm, just a thought.

We use this method to be clear on who is talking and who we want to talk to.

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B echelon, isn't that the unarmoured support units, kinda logistics guys? what is a 2IC in a TANK doing with unarmoured support units? must look kinda out of place.

Yes, that is correct.

We learned in WW2 to keep the 2IC well back so that if the HQ took casualties you had a commander in your back pocket ready to take over. If the OC is killed, the BC takes command until such time as the 2IC can move up to take over.

And it gives you a senior guy to deal with all the administration that needs to happen. Armour is a voracious consumer of supplies and it takes some horsepower to keep the goodies flowing.

So you have the F Echelon - this is the fighting vehicles.

The A1 Ech (normally just "the Echelon") is commanded by the SSM and is all the tactical resupply vehicles.

The A2 Ech is a spare set of POL and ammo trucks. They cycle in and out of the A1 Ech as they bring supplies forward (a full truck replaces an empty one)

The B Ech is back at the Bde admin area, and is the interface between the Service Battalion (or the FSE or the NSE or the ASG or whatever the hell the wogs are calling themselves this week) and the Sqn. Supplies, parts, vehicles, and pers flow through the CSS unit, to the B Ech, to the A2 Ech, to the A Ech, and ultimately to the F Ech.

All this doctrine is more-or-less common to Commonwealth countries. There are small differences (for example, infantry gets an "India" arm indicator in Canada, not "Foxtrot") but the broad concepts are the same.

It may seem complex at first, but there is a real symmetry to it and it makes it very easy (once you wrap your head around it) to figure out callsigns from orbats and vice versa. Compare to the Americans where you had to know that "Warhog 6" was the LCol but "Katana 6" was a captain. And God save me from the CTC menagerie....

Whereas with us, when you hear "99" on the net, you know that big things are afoot....

(My favourite American callsign was "Tortoise 6" - he was the environmental guy at CTC. Anyone who has been to Ft Irwin will know why. That same exercise, I was "Warrior Niner Echo Xray" which was a mix between Yank and Canadian C/S)

DG

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What may work better is giving the tanks a Tango indicator (T11) ad the grunts a India (I11) and so on.

The letter denoting the arm, just a thought.

We use this method to be clear on who is talking and who we want to talk to.

Sure that works on the radio.

It can’t work on the map in SB Pro PE because you can only have one (avoiding all Highlander jokes) “A” anything.

Once you have allocated “A” the next unit is forced to be “2” (or “B”).

As I raised a page or so ago in the modifiable template thread here:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=15954

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So you have the F Echelon - this is the fighting vehicles.

The A1 Ech (normally just "the Echelon") is commanded by the SSM and is all the tactical resupply vehicles.

The A2 Ech is a spare set of POL and ammo trucks. They cycle in and out of the A1 Ech as they bring supplies forward (a full truck replaces an empty one)

The B Ech is back at the Bde admin area, and is the interface between the Service Battalion (or the FSE or the NSE or the ASG or whatever the hell the wogs are calling themselves this week) and the Sqn. Supplies, parts, vehicles, and pers flow through the CSS unit, to the B Ech, to the A2 Ech, to the A Ech, and ultimately to the F Ech.

DG

Another way to think of this.

F Echelon is the Tp (PL) Comd’s bag off CSS (he can cross load ammo between vehicles, etc.)

A1 Echelon is the OC’s (Coy Comd) bag of CSS.

A2 Echelon is the COs bag of CSS.

B Echelon is the main source of CSS even further back.

The further you go back the more capable the asset (e.g. F Ech can change a track, A1 can recover a vehicle, A2 can do major repairs, B can provide a new one).

However the further you go back, the longer it takes, to get access to the bigger bags of CSS.

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the commonwealth C/S system is far from obvius and easy to get a hang on, but the echelon thing I like, its easy really.

Something I can't find when going throug the 2 threads is the C/S of the Lav captain. but from reccedgs post :

A Sqn (Tank) (note - all applies to B, C change prefix from "1" to 2, 3 as applicable)

OC: 19

2IC: 19A

BC: 19B

SSM: 19C

SQMS: 19D

LO: 19E

Is BC and Lav Captain equals? so Lav captain will be 19B in a LAVIII Coy?

Edit:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/reports-rapports/defoliant/images/2305Wmap.jpg

What is BELL, COOTES, WORTHINGTON etc on the map stand for? that black triangle I'm not familiar with?

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All this doctrine is more-or-less common to Commonwealth countries. There are small differences (for example, infantry gets an "India" arm indicator in Canada, not "Foxtrot") but the broad concepts are the same.

DG

Have to make a correction / apology.

We use India too.

Sorry had Foxtrot on the brain from the difference between your RSM / SSM / CSM call sign and ours.

One less point of confusion. :)

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Is BC and Lav Captain equals? so Lav captain will be 19B in a LAVIII Coy?

Yes, kinda-sorta.

The LAV Capt commands the LAVs once they have dismounted the troops.

In terms of planning and daily admin, the BC is very much the Sqn OpsO (and the disciplinarian of the Tp Ldrs) where the 2IC is more CSS/Pers Admin. From what I have seen of line infantry coys, the 2IC does all the 1/3/4 functions and the LAV Capt is more an assistant... but that's not authoritative; my experience with line infantry is more at the battalion level and the platoon level so I don't have a good handle on the daily operations of the coy.

I did a stint as a coy 2IC at Meaford (in a training coy) and lord knows I did all the 1/3 functions. The CQ was a sharp cat and he handled all the 4 stuff - thank the FSM. Because a training coy generates an astounding amount of pers adm....

What is BELL, COOTES, WORTHINGTON etc on the map stand for? that black triangle I'm not familiar with?

Those are bivoac sites; basically woods with a circular track and vehicle parking spots carved out of them. Each is big enough to hide a battalion, plus they are equipped with serviced Blue Rockets. You can sign them out from Range Control so you have a place to stay for the night.

DG

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well this cleared the confusion regard 3 or 4plt Coys up.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/ata-asl/units-unites-eng.asp

LAVIII Coys are 3 platoons. the Tank Sqn is 4 platoons.

Almost. :)

Tks work in "Troops"

Troop = Platoon in size but it's the name C/wealth forces give to Armoured, Engineer, Aviation, Artillery, Signal and Transport units of that size.

Roughly, if it used to be on horseback its a Troop (Tp). If it used to walk (or still does) its a Platoon.

Similarly the next size up for those types of units is called a Squadron, while Platoons usually form a Company as its next size up.

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Reading through B-GL-321-006/FP-001 there is a template on Warno and radio order for hasty attack etc, and that gaved me a radio TTP question

RADIO WARNING ORDER (WNG O)

CHARLIE CHARLIE _____ THIS IS ______ WNG O IN _____ MINS …

OVER.

CHARLIE CHARLIE ________ THIS IS ________ WNG O:

SIT: EN (Strength) ________________________________

LOC AT GR ________ FACING ________

MSN ________________________________

EXEC LEFT FLANKING FRONTAL RIGHT FLANKING

________ UP ________ PHASES

ASSAULT FORCE C/S ________ WITH C/S ________ COMMANDING

FIRE BASE C/Ss ______ AT GR _______ C/S _______ COMMANDING

C/S ________ TO PROVIDE INTIMATE SUPPORT

BREAK-IN TMS WITH C/S ________ AND C/S ________

FOO LOC GR: ________

CUT OFF C/S ________ FROM GR ________

RV AT GR ________________________________

RTE TO RV ________________________________

C/S ________ TO SECURE RV ASAP

ORDER OF MARCH IS _______________________________

ATTACK POSITION GR ________ FACING ________

FIRE PLAN ________________________________

H-HOUR NOT BEFORE ______________________________

ORDERS IN ________ MINS IN RV ATTACK POSITION

ACKNOWLEDGE…OVER.

Charlie Charlie? Is that the equalent to the british "Hullo"? so its a "shut up and listen, orders on the way"?

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You really do want to learn everything don't you!? :)

"Charlie Charlie" here would mean "collective callsign".

So intestead of saying:

11, 12, 13, 14, ..... (a list of all the command positions) this is 19, WNGO ...

You publish in SOIs a collective callsign list

where the group 11, 12, 13, 14, .... is referred to as say 9XC (just made that up).

Then you can say

CHARLIE CHARLIE 9XC THIS IS 19, WNGO

Saves tiume and ensures you dont forget someone.

Similarly;

CHARLIE CHARLIE 9XC EXEMPT 21 THIS IS 19, WNGO

Means I'm talking to all the people in 9XC except 12.

Charlie Charlie? Is that the equalent to the british "Hullo"? so its a "shut up and listen, orders on the way"?

The fact the 19 or 9 is on the net already tells people "shut up and listen". :)

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You really do want to learn everything don't you!? :)

Why do anything half-arsed? :biggrin:I'm doing a "canadian" scenario, then by god a canuck should be able to load it up and feel like home! I could have made this so easy on me and do a generic scenario and then do it my way, but this is much more fun!

"Charlie Charlie" here would mean "collective callsign".

So intestead of saying:

11, 12, 13, 14, ..... (a list of all the command positions) this is 19, WNGO ...

You publish in SOIs a collective callsign list

where the group 11, 12, 13, 14, .... is referred to as say 9XC (just made that up).

Then you can say

CHARLIE CHARLIE 9XC THIS IS 19, WNGO

So the SOI is made up in advance, when the Combat Team is formed and start working together?

happy xmas!

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So the SOI is made up in advance, when the Combat Team is formed and start working together?

happy xmas!

Yes generated by the Sigs when the group (BG, CT, etc.) comes to together.

Even "pure" units (say a Tk Sqn) will have SOIs published that change every X days.

These list freqs, all the collective callsigns ( e.g. all tp ldrs, all Tp WOs [since this is Canada], everyone in 1 Tp, everyone in 2 Tp, .... as required).

They then become like speed dials so if you want a frequently used grouping there's a CC for it and you use that shortcut instead of the full process.

Another is the net collective call sign (which is everybody on that net [could be 50+] entries).

So when the net control station wants to ensure everyone has comms they send a "net call":

e.g. All Stations WP6 this is 0A, radio check, over.

So that goes to "everyone" by saying "WP6" instead of reading to whole list off.

Merry Christmas to you too (H-135 here). :)

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They only exist in the standard LAV Coy C/S structure if they are organic (built in if you like) to their basic structure.

The Engineers aren't likely to be organic to the LAV Coy (likely only attached for a given mission) so you can pretty much call them whatever you want.

So if they are 1 Section, 1 Tp, A Sqn, XYZ Combat Engineer Regt you can call them: 11A

2 Section 1 Tp, B Sqn: 21B

They tend to use the call sign of the unit they came from.

Alternatively if the CT came from Canada with a set structure of a LAV Coy and a bit of this and bit of that "bolted on" then the OC would probably give them a Coy callsign for the duration of the deployment.

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Yes and here is where SB Pro PE's "limitations" come to your aid.

In real life we could have 1 Tp, A Sqn of Tks, 1 Pl, A Coy LAV and 1Tp, A Sqn of Engr.

That would be three "11"s on your radio net (and hence the need for arm indicators).

However SB Pro PE can only have one "11" on the map so you then need to reverse engineer the structure so that say "11" are the Tks, "21" the Inf and "31" the Engr and just adjust the brief to suit.

So 1 Tp, A Sqn of Tks, 1 Pl, A Coy LAV and 1Tp, A Sqn of Engr.

becomes:

1 Tp, A Sqn of Tks, 1 Pl, B Coy LAV and 1Tp, C Sqn of Engr.

and we don't need arm indicators becuase they each have their unique mil symbol that tells us "who is who".

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Actually, you can have up to 16 "11A" by using the templates "apply if" :)

You sure about that?

Pretty sure the underlying structure runs for 1 to 16 and the "apply if" bit only means "Coy" 1 - 5 use this, 6 - 10 use that.

Beneath that though there is only one "1 Coy".

But I haven't tested it.

You (as one of Esims bigger customers) should bug Ssnake to implement a arm indicator option in the C/S structure ;)

On the other hand, the arm indicator gets superseded by the Map Icon, silly me!

The map speaks for itself. We use arm indicators on the radio only.

Edited by Gibsonm
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