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T-72: gunner's independent target search


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Hi!

I just downloaded v2.64 and practicing with awesome T-72 tank right now.

One annoying thing immediately broke out: when, while playing for the gunner, I’m aiming at the target, TC often forces me to move GPS away to aim at the object, which he thinks is more important.

Can I make something to stop TC interrupting me?

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Well, maybe Esim could introduce a new method in the future? 'cos can't say it is very convenient.

I understand that, in theory, gunner should always listen to the TC commands, but in the reality AI usually makes a lot of mistakes.

And one more "clever" question: as I understand, there is now separate "identify" and "shoot" orders in T-72 as it was in, for example, Leo2 ("up arrow" and "space"). In T-72 they all merged in space button.

Why did they do it so?

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And one more:

How can I, playing from the TC position, order the gunner to target the object I'am looking at?

There is only "space" button to order him shoot at the target he is looking at. But how can I show him a target? Manually reversing his sight (shift-left-right) doesn't help much.

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I am sure T-72M1 is not a "hunter-killer" capable tank. In fact only modern Western tanks and maybe some variants of T-84 and T-90 have such capability thanks to good independent commander's panoramic sight. What tank commander has in Russian tanks is simple all-around periscopic sight useful mainly in daylight with basic stadia rangefinder scale. Look at such devices like TKN-3, TPN-3 etc.

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What is very dangerous but fully understandable due to lack of panoramic sight and Gunner Primary Sight repeater in this outdated tank.

You've got that right...:), another thing I also noticed is that when you do look through your commander's TKN-3 sight, it is actually much higher than the gunners GPS...and since (like you said) there is no GPSE on it, you don't actually see what gunner sees. There have been many times I had my tank behind a nice slight rise, good hull down and found a target for the gunner. Swing him over and order him to fire. He tells me cannot find or see target. I'm like...what? Well, after this happening a few times and my tank dying because the target then saw us, I jump into gunners position and take a look through the sight and low and behold the gunner's viewpoint is slightly below the ridgeline. Took me a while to figure this out...I was still thinking I was in a western tank with good GPSE viewpoint.:redface:

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Unfortunately situation awareness was not strong side od Soviet/Russian tanks from their very beginning (remember T-34?) and today the same situation still persists. Only Eastern advanced export models (T-90M, Oplot-M) have commander panoramic sights. Also notice TPK-N-1 and TKN-3 sights present in T-72A/M/M1 (IOC 1979) have quite small constant zoom level (8x and 5x respectively) - not very well suited for precise targeting and target identification - and the latter is not stabilized. However remember that basic T-72 (IOC 1972) has only optical rangefinder, no ballistic computer and its observation and targeting devices were essentially brought straight from T-62! The main T-72A/M1 advantage over T-72 was laser rangefinder and primitive ballistic calculator which in sum gave him M60A1 capabilities here but it was immediately outclassed by M60A3 TTS in the FCS area. Moreover T-72/A/B night fighting capabilities are ridiculous. Well T-72B (IOC 1985) at least has passive light amplification night sights but all Soviet tanks have night and day gunner sights separated till now AIFAK.

On the opposite for instance German tanks always have good situation awareness taking into account technological progress from early WW2 period of course. I think this won't change until Russia builds brand-new next generation tank but "project T-95" died a year ago.

I should also point out that despite T-72M1 drawbacks its is good that eSim included this tank in SBPro. Now you can observe themselves what technological gap arose between two sides of the Cold War and what Iraqi tankers felt in 1991...

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A lot of this might go away when there are three players in the three crew positions, rather than a mix of AI and people. For example, the TC and driver get the tank into a turret-down position: the driver brings the tank up a reverse slope until the TC tells him to stop just when the TC can see over the crest. Then the TC tells the gunner to control the driver, who brings the tank up into a hull-down position, stopping when the gunner can engage targets just over the crest line. The gunner covers his assigned arc, all the while knowing that the TC can slew the gun to a target at any time. It's all about teamwork, and the AI, in some cases, is probably not programmed to do just what a specific situation calls for.

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I am sure T-72M1 is not a "hunter-killer" capable tank.

Why not? That is how we used it. TC directs targets and while the gunner shoots the TC looks for new targets. Isn't this hunter-killer operation?

I have basically found out (since I play TC more than gunner) that the T-72 is really a tank one must command from the unbuttoned position...while on the move.

In tight spaces use the prisms and in the open use TKN with the horisontal stabilisation to turret.

A lot of this might go away when there are three players in the three crew positions...

Exactly. The movement in the firing position is something the TC should even meddle with after saying where he wants the tank to go. Driver looks up a good spot and then gunner tells on the driver when he sees the target. (Actually drivers will learn to do this themselves soon)

SB requires a lot more micro management than real tanks and tank formations. It doesn't handle individual tanks very precisely: for instance they do not know how to use landscape whilst moving at all. When we will have supercomputers at home, maybe then the crews will be as smart as real ones.

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If you play like I do (basically as the TC, but from the gunner's position), I have found it useful to use the vision blocks with stab off while moving/looking for targets and then switching to the GPS with stab on for engagements. I find this gives me pretty good situational awareness.

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Why not? That is how we used it. TC directs targets and while the gunner shoots the TC looks for new targets. Isn't this hunter-killer operation?

And that is also an explanation why Germans decided to add PERI R12 stabilized panoramic sight to Leo-1A4 only two years after T-72 introduction. Simply "hunter-killer" tactics in Russia means completely different thing than in the West. The history of next 40 years easily proved that!

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"Hunter-killer" is a mere marketing buzzword and can mean quite different things in different armies, at different times, even with the same equipment. I wouldn't pay too much attention to that label. For some, it's the mere ability for the commander to override the gunner in azimuth. For others it's a complete replication of the gunner's fire control system functionality plus a primary stabilized, independent sight.

Between those extremes there are entire generations of battle tanks.

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