Stratos Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Except of course that they are "static". Not much chance of them doing anything but sitting still.The vehicle commander equivalent is a crew commander always standing up (or down) regardless of the view chosen by the player or whether the hatches are closed or not, etc. So land vehicle crews already have one extra degree of complexity compared to helicopter crews, even before you start down the "slippery slope". We should start with something simple, not a full animated guy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I didn't say you should either."Fully animated" to me implies leaning over, looking around, matching where they are looking to where the player is looking (so if you are looking at 3 O'clock, so is the "character").Splash suggested a static character like a helo crewman.I was just indicating that a "static" person wouldn't work at the basic level, because they are static.What is the point of having a static person standing up looking dead ahead as your vehicle is driving into an artillery barrage and you as the player have dropped down and closed the crew commander's hatch to avoid shrapnel, etc?You need at least "up" and "down" positions so as I said its already a degree of difficulty harder than a static helo pilot who just sits there regardless or what is happening around them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Mixed opinions on visible crew Some vehicles would really benefit as stated in previous posts Trucks etc. There's no doubt it would make SB more immersive. Some tank Sims like sabow, The crews will actually abandon tanks when there on fire.(Drop and roll) its features like this that add that something to a Sim.SB does not need gimmicks but at some stage a few more features like that would be Welcome. One feature I would like to see is the ability for the commander to leave the Tank And scout i.e. crawl up to a hill and scan the area for targets With out giving away his tanks Position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejawolf Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 principal reason to make 3d crew, is so they can be shot. currently crew on vehicles like the M113 without gunshield, are just as well protected as on vehicles with gunshields. there's no penalty to being unbuttoned as the TC on a tank, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfstriked Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Give us first person machine gun views that are useable first.:luxhello: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I think implementation of the AH64A crew sets a reasonable standard for vehicle crews. The heads move. That's animation enough. They disappear when killed. No one has complained omigosh how unreal that is. All that business about wounds, protocol for bodies, medevac, yada yada, is little more than hyperbole.Yeah, drivers, gunners and commanders of ground vehicle models also would need to raise and lower in the hatch. Oh my. How would we do that? It's not like SB models hatches that open and close, Turrets that traverse. Ramps that raise and lower. Missile launchers that deploy and stow. Treads that move (and disappear when destroyed.) I'm just saying we're already there.eSim has already made the mistake of whetting our appetites with a reasonable depiction of a crew in a helo. Now the same treatment seems reasonable for other vehicles.That's all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 So the easy option is to remove the helo crews? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Yeah. That's the answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueSnake79 Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) The only reason the Apache has a crew at this point is that it is the chorus, not the lead. We can not use the same method for tank crews. It just won't work. And to explain why would add 3 or 4 more pages to this thread. You can not argue that we simply don't think its important, or just don't want to add 3d crews for the tanks. Edited April 20, 2014 by RogueSnake79 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejawolf Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 technically there's 2 other vehicles in SB that has 3d crew, the motorbike(ghost rider just looked too stupid...) and the man truck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 And of course the mythical "entombed warrior" found in the 2S1 and/or 2S3. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratos Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Dejawolf is possible to see a render of a vehicle with 3d crewman? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjay Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Seems to me this thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent with discussion of animated 3D crew for all vehicles. The original propostion was that the absence of a crew member affected the ability of other players to see the vehicle in the 3D view: (e.g the Toyota Pickup Technical) and would be usefully addressed by adding a static 3D crew member. IMHO, that is stilll a valid argument. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratos Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I better have static 3d crewmen than no 3d crewmen at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haukka81 Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I better have static 3d crewmen than no 3d crewmen at all.+1 For this, its very stupid to not make these visible. There is no excuses for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLabor Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Dejawolf is possible to see a render of a vehicle with 3d crewman? Like those? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CR2_Commander Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 My understanding of Steel Beasts is that its been developed for tactical simulation for armies around the world. It allows them to train in tactics, techniques and procedures to what ever level is appropriate, using vehicles of their army, whether offensively, defensively or just to practice obstacle crossings etc. I understand where Tjay is coming from with regards the technicals, I.e is the MG manned ect with the use of a figure, but I really fail to see how a little man with his head popping out the top of a turret will contribute to the training of soldiers. Granted we have all bought the game but we have to remember that PE is a by product of Professional which thank fully ESim release to the public. Wishing for things is great but I think if it doesn't bring anything to the game other than some eye candy that would take too long to implement and take away developers away from other fundamental additions is a waste of their time and resources. Or am I just barking up the wrong tree? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 I really fail to see how a little man with his head popping out the top of a turret will contribute to the training of soldiers.Well, it's not exactly a hindrance to training either, and it would look nicer. We're never opposed to adding atmospheric and entertainment elements as long as they aren't a detriment to the training value. Like I wrote, there are a few practical issues involved, but we're not opposed to the idea of having 3D crew on a fundamental level. It's just not been a top priority for us or our army customers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colebrook Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 More wishes:-possibility of adding enemy contact reports map manually, very usefull when playing without automatic updates-different colour messages for units under your controll and allied units-tanks on your platoon reporting contacts like this: tanks, 11 o'clock,2000 mInfantry is near useless in game,not sure how to change this but some ideas:-Infantry in buildings is invisible for enemy IA until they shoot,but a human player can see them easily at +3000m, some hidding system is needed against human player.-Infantry under fire is always moving, because they always try to maintain their "perfect line" formation,this causes infantry loosing their " sunken" positions.A more independet and loose formations for infantry can solve this-Make infantry able too shoot in stand and kneeling position.PD:And of couse, visible TC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt DeFault Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Infantry is near useless in gameI respectfully disagree with this particular statement. I have been very successful using infantry against human players online. Given suitable tactics for the situation and terrain, they can be very effective at scouting and/or search and destroy missions.I will concede that perhaps they are just a little too visible to human players while occupying buildings, but I'm not sure how this could be changed. Do you have them "disappear" at a certain range, or maybe only pop their heads up when an enemy unit is within small arms range? IDK. But if they're hidden entirely, you may never find them and this might break some mission parameters like having to clear an area of all enemy forces. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingtiger Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 How useful the infantry is is pretty much up to:TerrainAmmo loadoutPlayerTerrainForested map or hilly map, especially this high-quality maps with small elevations inside the forrest is good, also the terrain theme that makes the infantry sink into the ground more or less matters allot.Ammo LoadoutWhat the Scenario editor have given the infantry affects allot to say the least, try bumping into infantry with plenty of NLAW plus a few ATGM like Javelins (in infantry-friendly terrain) and your tanks will have a bad day.Playerlast and most important factor is the player itself, if you use the infantry correct you can do anything you want within realistic boundaries. in COOP/HTH I prefer to take the Inf or Mech inf because they give best challenge and every kill with them is pure joy.But yeah, there is ALLOT to improve with the infantry as well.FormationsHand grenadesPlayer-aimable RPG/AT roundsHide commandBut, looking back a few years the infantry we have now is really f*cking awesome :gun:/KT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 How useful the infantry is is pretty much up to:TerrainAmmo loadoutPlayerTerrainForested map or hilly map, especially this high-quality maps with small elevations inside the forrest is good, also the terrain theme that makes the infantry sink into the ground more or less matters allot.Ammo LoadoutWhat the Scenario editor have given the infantry affects allot to say the least, try bumping into infantry with plenty of NLAW plus a few ATGM like Javelins (in infantry-friendly terrain) and your tanks will have a bad day.Playerlast and most important factor is the player itself, if you use the infantry correct you can do anything you want within realistic boundaries. in COOP/HTH I prefer to take the Inf or Mech inf because they give best challenge and every kill with them is pure joy.But yeah, there is ALLOT to improve with the infantry as well.FormationsHand grenadesPlayer-aimable RPG/AT roundsHide commandBut, looking back a few years the infantry we have now is really f*cking awesome :gun:/KTAgreed,And I would wager they will get better in the future.Personally i find the RPG teams very effective especially with the RPG 29. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotareneg Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 As far as seeing infantry in buildings goes: glass windows block long wavelength IR so they shouldn't be directly visible with thermal sights.Perhaps they could add "breakable" windows that simply disappear when fired through, either by external forces or the infantry in the building itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Colossus Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) I think with crew served weapons the issue isn't just immersion, but as others have said, even a practical matter that aids detection or orients players as to how units are exposed if you're trying to avoid detection, or conversely, spot an enemy and attempt to kill it.There have been times when a technical with a recoilless gun or heavy machine gun was parked in a depression or behind a wall, I didn't really know if there was an enemy gunner on it. Not enough of the vehicle in these instances were exposed to get a shot to kill it, but an empty looking weapon, which is the same graphical state whether it is a threat or not. So you kind of shoot at the empty space around the weapon, then wonder if the program considered it a kill or enough to pacify it so it can no longer shoot- only to find out it didn't, then the weapon swings around and starts firing at you later.The infantry have come a long way since Steel Beasts 1, the can of worms has been opened in that respect already- challenges that were proposed then and debated (like just the fact now that infantry occupy buildings, that used to be controversial topic to that would require a lot of consideration to implement and would be feature creep prone) have developed into features.So, with time, I believe the end result will be worth it and will seem natural, and in the future, we'll look back upon how primitive it seemed without them. Edited April 20, 2014 by Captain_Colossus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankHunter Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Infantry is near useless in gameYou can and I have screwed people over with infantry. Ya, they are too visible in buildings (perhaps add a way to have them lay down in the building until they are ready to engage?), but you can do alot of damage with them dependent on the competence and/or tactics of the opposition.Back to troops in buildings, if you have civilians on the map, then you can't quite be sure if what you are looking at 3K+ away are troops, or civilians in buildings. So to some extent their visibility is dependent on how the mission maker made the mission too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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