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Steel Beasts: Content Wish List


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Loader position please. 

Even if just extremely simple like driver basic driver position with simple (almost useless) vision port and ability to get out of hatch and access binoculars (Commander shares his ones), if need be to manipulate loaders machinegun if there is one. 

Loading could be same way as on cv9040, Warrior or Scimitar.   By pressing Shift+insert / del  to load :)   

 

Reason why Team Saber is asking for this is because that 1 more crewman tank can make such huge difference in battle, and to make it so much more fun too.

Often inexperienced players are slow or troubled with things. In this case loader can step up and give driving instructions. 

Or do valuable spotting to areas of less interest while not buttoned down. 

He can also monitor radio channels and alert others if they missed a call

And he can help gunner by reading from tank mill chart the corresponding distances to target.  

 

+ This position also could possibly help to get rid of turret fairies  and need of F8 view  

 

https://youtu.be/WDzT7p1G3Gc?t=4280 

time 1:11:20   @Hedgehog talks about why driving can be a nice experience.  

time 1:12:07  @Assassin 7 Talks about why Loader can make such huge difference.  

 

Edited by Lumituisku
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3 hours ago, Lumituisku said:

Loader position please. 

Even if just extremely simple like driver basic driver position with simple (almost useless) vision port and ability to get out of hatch and access binoculars (Commander shares his ones),

 

I doubt many Crew Commanders would trust their Loader's with binoculars they had signed for.

 

Trusting them to make the brews is enough of a challenge.

 

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11 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

 

I doubt many Crew Commanders would trust their Loader's with binoculars they had signed for.

 

Trusting them to make the brews is enough of a challenge.

 

 

Well one could simply bring his own civilian ones. ;)

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13 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

I doubt many Crew Commanders would trust their Loader's with binoculars they had signed for.

 

Trusting them to make the brews is enough of a challenge.

 

Weird comment. Of course I give my binos away for the loader if im not using them. Increases changes of survival with the only "cost" being that the loader might lose them...  Which he wont. Why wouldn't I trust my loader with binos if I trust him with loading ammo into the gun when we're in combat?

back to thread's theme: I do like the idea of adding a loader as a role for more vehicles

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8 minutes ago, Maic said:

Weird comment. Of course I give my binos away for the loader if im not using them. Increases changes of survival with the only "cost" being that the loader might lose them...  Which he wont. Why wouldn't I trust my loader with binos if I trust him with loading ammo into the gun when we're in combat?

 

Because loading is pretty straight forward. Take this big thing from the correct box and put it in the gun, rinse and repeat.

 

If the Loader is standing up and half out of the turret, and the vehicle is moving, there is quite a good chance that they'll get dropped, snag on a branch, get smashed as optical instrument hits metal turret at speed, etc. Even more so if the guy is not responsible for them and has less incentive to hang onto them, etc.

 

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I've lived the dream of back tracking the Troop to find a pistol that the Loader signed for and left behind.

 

Also I'd argue that if the vehicle has stopped, the Commander should be using them, and if you are moving cross country at speed they are of limited use for anyone to try and look through.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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Semantics of signed for equipment aside.

 

A basic Loader position would be useful.

As a training objective it would help build crew cohesion if all 4 could do simulation training together.

 

Maybe even virtual loading and ready rack management could be a thing.

 

After all the M40 RCL needs reloading after every shot.

 

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3 hours ago, Hedgehog said:

As a training objective it would help build crew cohesion if all 4 could do simulation training together.

 

If it really was useful, someone would have asked for it in the classroom version over the last 20 years or so.

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Well, there were some probing questions, in all fairness. And in our simulator projects, some loader's places have been enabled, but typically without 3D visual representation, and they require no AI for the place.

If as a human player you not only want to look out of the hatch and observe, but also operate the AA MG, possibly also service the coax MG and do some pointless click action to load the gun, that requires a disproportionate amount of effort to replicate the capabilities in the absence of a human player. And keeping things how they are except when human players occupy the position, gibing human tanks extra capabilities, goes fully against all the design principles that I tried to establish in Steel Beasts.

 

In version 5 we may reevaluate some of the fundamental design assumptions, and as a consequence we might then also get the capability to have a more versatile (AI) loader that could be substituted by a human if so desired. But the thought of all the crew animation that go along with this do not fill me with appreciative joy, I must confess.

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5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

And in our simulator projects, some loader's places have been enabled, but typically without 3D visual representation, and they require no AI for the place.

This sounds wonderful, and pretty much what we would like to have. 

 

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

If as a human player you not only want to look out of the hatch and observe, but also operate the AA MG, possibly also service the coax MG and do some pointless click action to load the gun, that requires a disproportionate amount of effort to replicate the capabilities in the absence of a human player.

 I can understand this.  Escpecially since all the other important priorities in development.  For me...  this would be nice to have, but again...  not what we want most desperately.  Well..  aside being able to more MG away from blocking commanders peri xD   Function to move it aside as placeholder for controls perhaps? :)  

 

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

And keeping things how they are except when human players occupy the position, gibing human tanks extra capabilities, goes fully against all the design principles that I tried to establish in Steel Beasts.

I am not fully sure if I understand what you are referring here?  Do you mean, that AI has to be able to use all the same things as Human player does. MG for example?

 

I am curious about those Design principles.  

 

Edited by Lumituisku
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53 minutes ago, Captain_Colossus said:

in the DCS mission editor, some environmental effects can be added to scenarios like pre-placed fires and pre-destroyed buildings. it looks good and is immersive for entertainment purposes, but also aids in navigation or conversely, obscure lines of sight

 

Something similar can be achieved currently with IEDs / VBIEDs set to detonate at mission start.

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The real reason to have the loader modeled, IMO, is specifically for the use of the loader's MG when unbuttoned. 

 

Clicking buttons to load rounds sounds not fun. Though it could induce getting really mad at your loader when he loads a SABOT round when it is supposed to be HEAT... just like real life.

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19 hours ago, Ssnake said:

If as a human player you not only want to look out of the hatch and observe, but also operate the AA MG, possibly also service the coax MG and do some pointless click action to load the gun,

 

I'd like to be able to man the loader's position, engage targets with the AA MG where equipped, have an AI loader who was capable of employing the AA MG when told to do so, and would automatically leave the AA MG alone when servicing the gun/coax/racks/etc.  Humans in the loader position should get either a black screen or a stationary view inside a turret looking at ammo racks or something and be unable to fire the AA MG while the loader is loading/coax/racks/etc.  IE you can only do something if you could really do it.

 

While we're at it...AI loader who slams his hatch closed when under fire, but waits for a command to unbutton from that point on.  Perhaps utilizing the existing key/functionality for vehicle with infantry and roof hatches.

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Not only was loading the gun probably not much fun, you'd also need to automatize camera movement to allow a loading procedure by mouse clicks that is about as fast as the loading in real life. Not much faster, not much slower. At least on the Leo 2, the ammo door is operated by elbow kick, so you don't even properly look at the switch. It's a physical job, and computer games aren't very good at replicating them.

I wouldn't want to let go of it however, because you can load the gun only while you're NOT in the MG's sight or observing out of the hatch. If the human player was nor required inside for loading activities, that would not contribute to an overall realistic experience, realistic results, etc.

 

And like I wrote, we simply can't have an AI loader shoot his MG; it's one of those  design limitations that were planted in the code at a time when we wouldn't seriously believe that Steel Beasts would eventually mutate into a training application. I might have secretly dreamed of an application lifetime of 20+ years, but it was far from likely, and "time to market" was also an important factor, in retrospect.

In short, "not possible in 4.x".

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6 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

Humans in the loader position should get either a black screen or a stationary view inside a turret looking at ammo racks or something

 

Eh, no, they should not.

This is 2022 not 1998.

 

LeoAS1, T-62, Aus PCs (ASLAV and M113), are the weakest in this area.

Sho't Kal & CR2 are better in that you have a partial 3D in the TC view.

Strongly disagree with no interiors.

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19 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Yes, if a human player could operate the AAMG, then I'd want an AI loader to do that competently as well. But that's not in the cards, with version 4, without major contortions.

Aknowledged

 

14 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

Clicking buttons to load rounds sounds not fun. Though it could induce getting really mad at your loader when he loads a SABOT round when it is supposed to be HEAT... just like real life.

Heh, that can already happen when doing multicrew on CV9040, Warrior, Scimitar and DF-90.  xD    So such events are part of the simulations naturally.  :)  

As for clicking buttons... it really depends a lot.

 

7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Not only was loading the gun probably not much fun,

Um to my personal experience it is actually fun.  It is vital thing to do in order to be able to fire the maingun. And the stress and hurry to get things right..  feels so rewarding when gunner presses trigger and yells "Target - cease fire" On DF90 one can actually do it pretty quickly too, so there is reward for that.   Then again my best friend things that loading DF90 is masochistic experience because the "Strings and levers are so small targets for mouse cursor to click on  (he does wish those to be larger, or have larger mouse "Hand")   

 

56 minutes ago, Hedgehog said:

Strongly disagree with no interiors.

Um..  Truly I don't care if there is interior or not. Interior and buttons to click would be nice to have.. but at this point I truly only want position for loader.  That one can unbotton and look around... and button up to be able to load or service what ever needs be. Perhaps with keycommands like on " CV9040, Warrior or Scimitar"  by pressing  shift + ammo button.  Also a some sort of vision block periscope if there is one..  would be nice to see tank movements. 

 

Actually.. looking to vehicles. I see that Shot'Kal, and Challenger-2  have sort of rotating vision block?  American tanks have nothing at all for loader.   Leopard 1s loader have either couple of vision blocks 1A5.. or possibly a rotating one on AS1 version?  Leopard 2's seem to have only fixed front left pointing wide vision block.  Centauro... have several pointing to sides.    And that is about it for crewable vehicles that have AI Loader. 

 

7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

you'd also need to automatize camera movement to allow a loading procedure by mouse clicks that is about as fast as the loading in real life. Not much faster, not much slower. At least on the Leo 2, the ammo door is operated by elbow kick, so you don't even properly look at the switch. It's a physical job, and computer games aren't very good at replicating them.

I think shift + hotkey would do well at that :D    Bit like manual firing with the main gun! 

 

7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I wouldn't want to let go of it however, because you can load the gun only while you're NOT in the MG's sight or observing out of the hatch. If the human player was nor required inside for loading activities, that would not contribute to an overall realistic experience, realistic results, etc.

Indeed on CV9040, Warrior, Scimitar and DF-90 loading can only happen while buttoned down. Heck.. even on Commander stations on tanks with commander MG.. one has to be on right level to service the weapon.  So naturally  like this. Yes!   One could add some simple mill range card inside for loader to check corresponding distances for crew. 

 

8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

And like I wrote, we simply can't have an AI loader shoot his MG; it's one of those  design limitations that were planted in the code at a time when we wouldn't seriously believe that Steel Beasts would eventually mutate into a training application. I might have secretly dreamed of an application lifetime of 20+ years, but it was far from likely, and "time to market" was also an important factor, in retrospect.

In short, "not possible in 4.x".

Im fine with this. Same with not clicking buttons and such at this point because truly..  what we really need and want is a low responsibility crew position, that is vital and can play important role if other crew so chooses.   The point is..  there a lot of new players who want to try this sim. Loader position would be nice for them to feel being part of the crew and to be allowed to contribute.  It also is cruzial because without doing things right, maingun wont fire xD   or fire fast enough or right ammunition.

Also, it is nice place for players like me to monitor and instruck new players.  I could actually see what they see without having to guess from F8 position.  

 

As for F8..  I don't like turret fairy position..  that alone gives human player tanks unfair advantage on multiplayer when a turret fairy joins up and starts telling where enemies are.   Loader unbuttoned view could solve that problem too.  

 

I have one last important point here about multicrew.

The big reason why MMO games like  World of Warcraft and such are soo good greatly comes to multiplayer and teamwork. This is where Multicrew is so special..  you depend of each others, Driver and Loader have their special roles where they as players are crusial just like Gunner and Commander have.     In a tank you are all in it together..  like a sport team.

 

Also.. on multicrew  because:

 

20 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Yes, if a human player could operate the AAMG, then I'd want an AI loader to do that competently as well.

This!   This is probably one of biggest reasons why I think SB is so much better simulation than any other than I am currently aware of.   It doesn't kill the game for others if one crew member has to go in middle of game. Or if he doesn't know how to do something. Because AI can do things "Well enough"  

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Not only was loading the gun probably not much fun, ...

Not as fun as gunning but interesting in its own right as it takes speed, streangth, dexterity, and agility to quickly reload a round in the confines of a turret.  I lament the fact that newer generations of tankers than myself will not know the feeling of warmth and security, in a moving tank, when the empty shell casings start piling up around their boots to the point they can't move their feet.

Edited by TSe419E
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18 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

American tanks have nothing at all for loader.

Actually there is a vision block for the loader that goes into the loaders hatch.  It is usually stored on the turret wall next to the loaders hatch and not mounted till needed. 

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1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Well in either case I doubt we'll pay for it since both platforms are going.

And I hope you did buy the replacements with non-exclusive rights on the inteleectual property. Otherwise you can only ever use simulator models made by the vehicle maker. Something a few european MoD found out too late 😉

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3 hours ago, TSe419E said:

[Loading the gun is] Not as fun as gunning but interesting in its own right as it takes speed, strength, dexterity, and agility to quickly reload a round in the confines of a turret.  I lament the fact that newer generations of tankers than myself will not know the feeling of warmth and security, in a moving tank, when the empty shell casings start piling up around their boots to the point they can't move their feet.

Been a loader long enough on a Leopard 2 to appreciate the benefits of this crew position. But pretty much all of what you describe above is what a desktop computer game experience can not convey.

Given that the "frantic arrow key tapping" is something that already polarizes the current Steel Beasts players, I cannot imagine that attempts to replicate the physical stress and satisfaction of gun loading is something that will be universally appreciated.

 

I sometimes use the following analogy to describe the limitations of a 3D environment for crew interaction.

"Imagine that you have no hands, just a single prosthetic made of a sawed-off broom stick, and the only thing you can do with it is poke at things. That's what a Graphical User Interface interface is."

Now apply that to a representation of the loader's place. It should be immediately obvious why we decided two decates ago that it was "not worth it". These days it may be "less not worth it" than at times when we didn't have 3D interiors at all, and then only as an experiment on two or three selected vehicles. But still, under the prevailing conditions it would still be a net negative since every hour spent on such a feature would be an hour taken away from other feature development.

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