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Steel Beasts: Content Wish List


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1. eSim puts a vehicle model in.

Someone indicates it has faults and provides details.

eSim progressively fix the items listed.

Sounds good to me. Do you mean details like in this Post?

And as you can see, not eSim is fixing anything, the "grousehead" community does. But hey, i don't want to conceal a statement of an official eSim Staff in this Post:

We are pleased to remove it [the Leopard 1A5 GE] with the next update.

(Free translation by me)

I'm really sorry, this is totally OT and I won't write anymore about this issue. Just try to understand why not every SB player is very pleased.

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So the point is "we have only to be better than a worse product"?

Until now I thought the strategy behind SB is different...

name a product with a more accurate model of the leopard 1A5?

lets take another example:

wargame european escalation:

maxresdefault.jpg

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Hi deja,

maybe there is no better model in an other sim.

This is not the point in my opinion.

For me the model is good, but I´m not a former Leo1 nerd.

Eisenschwein found 46 mistakes in the Leo1 model, so why are you not writing:

"Hey Eisen dude, where are these mistakes? and let`s us make the model better and better."

I think to write:

"you're welcome to go and play some other sim that simulates the leopard 1.", is a little bit childish.

But hopefully I translated your post wrong, or interpret to much.

best regards

Duke

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So the point is "we have only to be better than a worse product"?

Until now I thought the strategy behind SB is different...

OK, lets all take a step back here and try to remain calm. I have to say something here, in the defense of those who spent long hours working on the item in question, and also to shed some light on the overall situation.

First of all, you don't have to come here and fight this person's battles, I have a feeling he can do that himself. The problem with the whole situation is both the attitude, and the expectation that all of those issues would be addressed in the first place. There is no way that many issues will be addressed, that is a fact, because that would be tantamount to redoing the entire texture and model which is something we cannot and will not afford in the near term. And yes, the modding community must, by necessity, step in and address fine details because quite frankly don't have the time to spend on make every single vehicle perfect down to the nut and bolt. Like it or not, but this is pretty much the case with every game that has a wide range of content like Steel Beasts does, and it is why we encourage modding (with official mod folders and by providing texture templates). We do what we can, and as much as we can. We are talking about moving from a situation where the tank in question did not exist at all, and now it does, and is playable, and yet it is not perfect. What you guys don't seem to understand is that most (not all) of these issues can be chalked up to the realm of what is called "rivet counting". Locks from storage boxes are missing, or anti-slip surfaces is not rendered? Maybe my Google translate is not functioning properly, so go ahead and translate that list here and lets see if the majority of these things are beyond the realm of nit picking. So, in a nut shell, this someone you speak of is very unhappy from getting his own tank added to Steel Beasts -- a tank which no one else was really demanding but him -- and we took busy time out of our schedule and spent money to do it (modeling time, programming time), and in the end it is nit picked down to the rivet, and the attitude comes off as completely ungrateful.

Having now had the opportunity to study the model of the best tank of the modern age more closely, I have to say the wait was not worth it. (translated by Google)
Well, you will just have to excuse us if we take offense here and we just do the prudent thing: move on to the next vehicle to make, for someone more thankful. Rhetorical question: I can't help but wonder -- if the French had a PLAYABLE Leclerc in SB with these same issues, would they not be happy to have it? We don't demand thanks or appreciation, but you damn well better not say "...the wait was not worth it" and then fully expect that a list of issues would be addressed. This is where the perception of ungratefulness comes from: not in any requirement of thanks not given, but rather in the lack of tact in the reporting of the "issues". Another example is the posting of the Leopard 1A5 images to this thread after it was added to SB, which was obviously intended to suggest that it really does not exist in Steel Beasts because of these "errors". The perception here is rudeness.

But hey, i don't want to conceal a statement of an official eSim Staff in this Post:

You don't have to conceal it. I don't understand the mentality that the developer cannot get upset with customers just as you have the right to get upset with the developer. If we think that someone is being unreasonable in their criticism then there should be every right for the developer of a product to speak their mind. This one way street mentality is quite absurd, and is a product of our times. The point of the original poster was to try to illicit some sort of rewording of the comment like "thanks for going through the trouble to add the tank that I personally requested, and I am glad it is was included, BUT...". Nope, nothing of the kind in response, instead it was more of the same rudeness.

So here is the suggestion:

If you can recognize the trivial from the important in that list, and you can narrow the list down to 5 major issues, then we may look into improving those items. But I can tell you that pins missing from skirts, anti-slip surfaces not rendered, and locks missing from boxes is the sort of thing that almost all vehicles missing out of necessity, because there is only so much detail that can be done within the limited amount of time available to make these vehicles. If I held my beloved M1A1 model up to these same standards then it would fail miserably, and yet I have been quite happy with the quality of it all these years. Why? Because I understand the limitations on the detail that can be modeled, and because I think it is the best modeled M1A1 in any game, past or present. That does not mean that I do not want the M1A1 improved with more polygons, higher resolution texture and greater detail, no, it just means I am happy to have what I have, but that is just me. A reasonable person however would provide a list of issues to address, under the hope that they are addressed once the model is overhauled/updated in future iterations. This is obviously not the intent here though, or at least not how it is perceived.

Other than that, we just have to except that some people will not be happy with the content and move on. But if we can all be level headed and reasonable, then some of these items could be addressed. The question is where it will go from here...

So, please PM me five major issues and we will consider addressing those. All other issues can be considered for future overhauls of the model, and hopefully this will not cause too much grief anymore.

Edited by Volcano
typos, clarifications
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Volcano touched on some important points here. The fact that the Pro PE dev team encourages modding is worth noting in particular. Consider that there are some other development teams out there who not only discourage modding, but go out of their way to prevent it.

Second, nobody is ever going to be able to make 3D models that are exact replicas of the vehicle they represent. If you want an EXACT replica of a Leopard 1A5 you had better place a phone call to Krauss-Maffei and tell them to start melting down some steel because you need a tank made. We'll have to settle for representations instead, and flawed representations at that. There is only so much time that can be spent on making a model before the modeler goes insane, and there can only be so many polygons in that model before we run out of hard disk space, or processor power, or something. We've got to use our imagination a little bit to sort of fill in the gaps. The 3D model doesn't need to be an exact duplicate, just a good representation of the actual vehicle, and the guys making the models for Pro PE have done that and then some.

Finally, I'm glad to have the 1A5. I recognize that we really didn't *need* it to simulate a time period, because the existing 1A5/DK is pretty much an exact duplicate in terms of nearly everything except for armor. However, the dev team went out of their way to get it in, and while it's not perfect it blends in MUCH better than the 1A5/DK did when we're doing a 'Cold War W.Germany' scenario.

I imagine that in time, much like the other vehicles, we will see improvements just as we have seen improvements in other vehicles. If we have 3D modelers who want to tackle the work themselves and do it right now, then maybe it'll happen faster. In a year or two we might have a separate 3D interior for it. Until then, we should make the best of what we've got.

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After what Volcano wrote it feels like I might be adding fuel to the fire - but fuck it!

Sounds good to me. Do you mean details like in this Post?

First of all, the thread was placed in a subforum that you know I'm not visiting. You know very well that I visit the 911 board out of courtesy and look at the general discussion and the support forum. If you don't place it there, I won't notice. If you report in German and not English you further reduce your chances to grab the attention of our staff. Believe it or not, I'm not the only one from the team who scans the discussion boards, but not everybody in the team can read and understand German.

Complaining loudly about something that you deliberately didn't put in a place where we will find it just to complain that we're not doing anything about it is the kind of despicable smugness that is rightfully called trolling.

Anyone who has been reading me in the last 10 years knows that my following words are unprecedented. Congratulations, you're a first:

You and Eisen, Sirs, are self-centered, passive-aggressive whiny, rivet obsessed, ungrateful trolls, and I'm having enough of this.

Go and take a hike if this is your way of showing appreciation. Your attitude has pretty much destroyed the German community already but I shall be damned to let that happen here. Furthermore, I'm calling your bluff. You just want us to dance to your tune because you think that as customers you're entitled to demand everything. You think that we dare not confront you with your unreasonable demands? Think again.

We have bent over to appease your demand for a Leo 1A5 with cast turret - you got three! - and what we get in return is sniveling about missing padlocks in a texture. Bite me. You know well that you will never get anything better than Steel Beasts when it comes to modeling the Leopard - nothing at least that you can afford to pay - and you know very well that pretty much no army in the world still employs the Leo 1 because it's an obsolete POS. As a consequence, any work that we invest in this is a costly form of hobby out of sheer courtesy.

I was about to call you the Waldorf and Stadler of this community, but that would be incorrect. They at least were funny. Have it your way but don't wield the "customer is king" placard. Only profitable customers are king. You are not. Even if you two bought 60 full price licenses we'd barely break even with the cost of adding a model like the Leopard in its current state. If you demand to see those 46 padlocks added, buy 120 full price licenses from me - and I'd still refuse to do this business because I know that you'll find another 46 nit picks for which you would demand corrections. You two cannot possibly monetarily compensate the team for the kind of attitude that you are showing. There is no positive return on investment emotionally. If you want us to lose money by doing things for you, be smart enough to at least pretend a friendly attitude.

Despite your contributions, which are numerous, you have become a net liability. It may be that you managed to intimidate the rest of 911 enough with your hissy fits so that nobody dares any longer to speak up against you. If you think you can pull the same stunt over here you're messing with the wrong guy. 911 members have left you in droves, the German community has effectively been fractured into sectarian groups that are feuding each other. You may not be the only ones to blame but I know a bossy mobber when I see one. I will not let this corrosive mentality creep into this community here.

I warned you in June that my patience was wearing thin. This may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. It will take a lot more than profuse excuses and a few weeks to calm things down.

Enjoy your remaining year of access to the PE server. I shall very thoroughly consider your case next September. Right now I'm disinclined to extend the license.

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After what Volcano wrote it feels like I might be adding fuel to the fire - but fuck it!

<snip>

Enjoy your remaining year of access to the PE server. I shall very thoroughly consider your case next September. Right now I'm disinclined to extend the license.

Harsh.......

I think this is the first time I've seen Ssnake blow a gasket...

:eek2:

Edit:

I am (and I'm sure We at UK Armour are) exceedingly pleased with our Warrior & Scimitar additions, (LRFs and Ballistic Computers are for wimps.)

As well as the Panther/LMV truck (We don't really get on with the RWS though, too many transistors in that thing :) )

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Harsh.......

It's a common theme in pretty much every community especially in simulation. There are always always those who's loud whinny voices seem the loudest and most persistant.

I can't think of any other software in my extensive collection that has such an intimate, two way and enjoyable relationship with the Devs. They are gracious and clearly passionate about SB and seem to listen and exchange ideas with us, the users/fans/idiots :cool3:

So.....to let Fly a salvo in the general direction of the trolls, the critics and the nay Sayers too right ! ..Bloody Good Show ! and well deserved. I shall wear my ESim games shirt today in tribute :gun:

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Harsh.......

I think this is the first time I've seen Ssnake blow a gasket...

:eek2:

Edit:

I am (and I'm sure We at UK Armour are) exceedingly pleased with our Warrior & Scimitar additions, (LRFs and Ballistic Computers are for wimps.)

As well as the Panther/LMV truck (We don't really get on with the RWS though, too many transistors in that thing :) )

Agreed, but even better for me was when we got the CR2, to say I was happy then was an understatment, and it's still my favourite vehicle in SB, love it, love it, love it :bigsmile:

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That´s nice, very nice.

The Man I take 1.500 km to a LAN Party an back at my own cost calls me:

[...]

You and Eisen, Sirs, are self-centered, passive-aggressive whiny, rivet obsessed, ungrateful trolls, and I'm having enough of this. [...]

So I think this will be my last Post in this community.

But why Mr. Ssnake do you call my a troll?

- For working over 10 Years with and for the German Speaking Community

- For Working on the German Translation for your Manual

- Helping Newbies

- Making Workshops on the Sce. Editor

- For wishing a nearly proper Model of the Cast Turret Leo 1´s

- For saying the released Modell have Mistakes

- For Planning and making the LNoT Series

- For doing a to do List for Falli(911) to work on the Skin on our Forums

a.s.o.

Or is it just that I quit my Beta Tester Status after you blame me in the German Forum ?

So you blame me here too, nice!

That is all complete O.T. and if you, Mr. Ssnake have any Problems with my Person, why didn´t you send my a E-Mail, or a PM?

No, it always must be "the great Show".

If you are not sure if the Leo 1 is good enough to release, why did you do it or ask before?

I think you are not interested in the Leo 1 Modell, all you want is a Strike against 911.

So try it.

My 2 Cent

BTW: A PM to Volcano is on the Way with the 5 major Issues on Leo 1A5

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(...)and you know very well that pretty much no army in the world still employs the Leo 1 because it's an obsolete POS.

Not trying to throw in some more fuel, as I agree with you 100%, and from my part, I would like to show my full appreciation for you and the team, for bringing in, from time to time, nice new gifts for us to play; two of those are some of my personal favorites btw.

But I must disagree with just a tiny bit of what you´d wrote. Brazilian army still operates some 350+ Leo 1.

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With the introduction of version 2.6x, the Leopard 1 became probably my most-played vehicle -- bar perhaps the M1, but it's close.

I'm certainly no rivet-counter and couldn't tell you what's wrong with the new Leo 1 models.

My only real disappointment with the additions in 3.0 was the lack of a TC view model/texture. That's something we can't fix for ourselves with texturing on a skin, and I'm hoping the expressed ungratefulness of a few doesn't stand in the way of that being addressed.

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If it looks and acts the part at range, and it doesn't have a random 3 foot tall knob sticking out of the roof then I don't see the problem. I'll bet there are more important issues to deal with than whether or not there is a 5kg sledgehammer on the skin.

On a related note, thank you Nils & Co. for the T-62 and the minor request I made as regards the mission editor.

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After what Volcano wrote it feels like I might be adding fuel to the fire - but fuck it!

I warned you in June that my patience was wearing thin. This may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. It will take a lot more than profuse excuses and a few weeks to calm things down.

Enjoy your remaining year of access to the PE server. I shall very thoroughly consider your case next September. Right now I'm disinclined to extend the license.

I think all these posts was a big misunderstanding. The List was made in context to help somebody who created really exellent skins.

Such punishment for all members of 911 I must scrutnize myself which sense my mapworking have when I didn´t have a room to play with friends.

Other german comunities are unaccepatble for me and so the choose getting tightly.

It´s not a blackmail to somebody, I like to do such work, but I also like to see how it works in a battle.

Without a possibility to try out a Scenario on our server and the criticism of such friends like Eisen I loosing all my motivation to do anything for the comunity

best regards

Michael

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