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Panzer_Leader

German Reconnaissance Battalion c.1989

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Servus Falli,

According to my informations, a PzAufklKp in Heeresstruktur 4 (until 1993/4) consists of the following units:

- KpFueGrp (CO, Head)

1x Leo1, 1x M113, 1x Wolf/Iltis, 1x 2t truck, 1x 5t truck

- I. Zug (1st plt)

2 groups of each 3x Leo1

- II. Zug (2nd plt)

2 groups of each 3x Leo1

- III. Zug (3d plt)

4 groups of each 2x Luchs + 1x Fuchs TPz

Could anyone confirm this? :confused:

no, I found this in wikipedia:

Heeresstruktur 4 (1980-1990)

Die Heeresstruktur 4 veränderte die Panzeraufklärungsbataillone stark, weil die 4. Kompanie, die mit ihren Panzergrenadier-, Panzer-, Mörser- und Pionierkräften das Bataillon bisher zum selbstständigen Gefecht der verbundenen Waffen befähigte, 1980 aufgelöst wurde. Stattdessen erhielt das Bataillon eine weitere Panzeraufklärungskompanie vom Typ der 2. und 3. Kompanie. 1982 wurden die 2. und 3. Kompanie in schwere Kompanien und die 4. Kompanie in eine gemischte Kompanie umgegliedert. Außerdem wurde eine 5. Kompanie mit Jägern und Transportpanzer Fuchs zur infanteristischen Gewinnung von Aufklärungsergebnissen gebildet. Schließlich wurde das Panzeraufklärungsbataillon um einen Radarzug mit dem Aufklärungsradar Rasit verstärkt, der der 4. Kompanie unterstellt war.

Es ergab sich folgende Gliederung des Panzeraufklärungsbataillons (Stand 1982):

Stabs- und Versorgungskompanie

2 schwere Panzeraufklärungskompanien mit 4 schweren Spähtrupps (mit je 3 KPz Leopard 1)

1 gemischte Panzeraufklärungskompanie mit 2 schweren Spähtrupps (mit je 3 KPz Leopard 1) und 1 leichten Spähzug (mit 4 leichten Spähtrupps mit je 2 SpPz Luchs)

1 Panzeraufklärungskompanie TPz mit 10 Transportpanzern Fuchs und 3

Panzerabwehrraketensystemen Milan

1 Ausbildungskompanie

3 Brigadespähzüge (in Friedenszeiten dem Bataillon unterstellt) mit 4 leichten

Spähtrupps mit je 2 SpPz Luchs

1 Radarzug mit 9 Radartrupps PARA

@Panzer_Leader

the 4th coy had also a radar plt (recon radar "RASIT")

TPz1.Fuchs.PARA.Rasit.jpg

best regards

Duke

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kk, i´ve got my informations out of Fahrzeug PROFILE 38 "Die Panzeraufklärungstruppe der Bundeswehr 1956 - 2008". There are small organization charts for the different armoured recon battalions. Perhaps reality was somewhere in the middle...

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Sounds like fun, sneaking around in the rear.... :) (Yeah, I know)

Let me know when you're ready for testing, and I see if I avaliable.

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Servus Falli,

no, I found this in wikipedia:

Heeresstruktur 4 (1980-1990)

Die Heeresstruktur 4 veränderte die Panzeraufklärungsbataillone stark, weil die 4. Kompanie, die mit ihren Panzergrenadier-, Panzer-, Mörser- und Pionierkräften das Bataillon bisher zum selbstständigen Gefecht der verbundenen Waffen befähigte, 1980 aufgelöst wurde. Stattdessen erhielt das Bataillon eine weitere Panzeraufklärungskompanie vom Typ der 2. und 3. Kompanie. 1982 wurden die 2. und 3. Kompanie in schwere Kompanien und die 4. Kompanie in eine gemischte Kompanie umgegliedert. Außerdem wurde eine 5. Kompanie mit Jägern und Transportpanzer Fuchs zur infanteristischen Gewinnung von Aufklärungsergebnissen gebildet. Schließlich wurde das Panzeraufklärungsbataillon um einen Radarzug mit dem Aufklärungsradar Rasit verstärkt, der der 4. Kompanie unterstellt war.

Es ergab sich folgende Gliederung des Panzeraufklärungsbataillons (Stand 1982):

Stabs- und Versorgungskompanie

2 schwere Panzeraufklärungskompanien mit 4 schweren Spähtrupps (mit je 3 KPz Leopard 1)

1 gemischte Panzeraufklärungskompanie mit 2 schweren Spähtrupps (mit je 3 KPz Leopard 1) und 1 leichten Spähzug (mit 4 leichten Spähtrupps mit je 2 SpPz Luchs)

1 Panzeraufklärungskompanie TPz mit 10 Transportpanzern Fuchs und 3

Panzerabwehrraketensystemen Milan

1 Ausbildungskompanie

3 Brigadespähzüge (in Friedenszeiten dem Bataillon unterstellt) mit 4 leichten

Spähtrupps mit je 2 SpPz Luchs

1 Radarzug mit 9 Radartrupps PARA

@Panzer_Leader

the 4th coy had also a radar plt (recon radar "RASIT")

TPz1.Fuchs.PARA.Rasit.jpg

best regards

Duke

Yes, this structure agrees with the document I referred to in my original post in this thread, though they seem to omit to the company commanders' tanks from the Wikipedia entry:

I’m now interested in German reconnaissance battalions of the late 1980s and found a description of their TO&E here: http://www.microarmormayhem.com/BW_OOB.pdf (see page 51 for Panzeraufklärungsbattalion 1).

As it was written in German I hoped it was authoritative. Anyway, unless a better source comes to light I'll use this organisation as the basis for my scenario.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers

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On 12/6/2012 at 7:26 PM, Falli said:

According to my informations, a PzAufklKp in Heeresstruktur 4 (until 1993/4) consists of the following units:

- KpFueGrp (CO, Head)

1x Leo1, 1x M113, 1x Wolf/Iltis, 1x 2t truck, 1x 5t truck

Resurrecting this post as I'm hoping my German friends can help with appropriate call signs for the call sign template (I'm using one originally supplied by PzBtl 911) for the above vehicles (excluding the Leopard 1 = "Chef") for an update of 'Area Reconnaissance at Neustadt am Rübenberge 1989 v2.1 (4.010)' I'm working on in advance of the the release of 4.1.  Specifically, I'd love to know the "best" vehicle call signs for the M113, Wolf, 2t truck and 5t truck.  I did not include these vehicles in v2.1 of the scenario but, based on now having Fahrzeug Profile 38 'Die Panzeraufklarungstruppe der Bundeswehr 1956 bis 2008' as a reference, I'd like to include them.   

 

Using 'Die Panzeraufklarungstruppe der Bundeswehr 1956 bis 2008', and the battalion template on p.18, as a guide, I'm assuming the company XO could be found in the Wolf or M113, which would have been the company's tactical command post, or company sergeant major's vehicle, or maybe the other way around, I'm guessing (??).  

 

Any tips on the above would be gratefully received!  I like to make the organisations, equipment and call signs as accurate as I possibly can.

 

Cheers

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Panzer_Leader said:

Resurrecting this post as I'm hoping my German friends can help with appropriate call signs for the call sign template (I'm using one originally supplied by PzBtl 911) for the above vehicles (excluding the Leopard 1 = "Chef") for an update of 'Area Reconnaissance at Neustadt am Rübenberge 1989 v2.1 (4.010)' I'm working on in advance of the the release of 4.1.  Specifically, I'd love to know the "best" vehicle call signs for the M113, Wolf, 2t truck and 5t truck.  I did not include these vehicles in v2.1 of the scenario but, based on now having Fahrzeug Profile 38 'Die Panzeraufklarungstruppe der Bundeswehr 1956 bis 2008' as a reference, I'd like to include them.   

 

Using 'Die Panzeraufklarungstruppe der Bundeswehr 1956 bis 2008', and the battalion template on p.18, as a guide, I'm assuming the company XO could be found in the Wolf or M113, which would have been the company's tactical command post, or company sergeant major's vehicle, or maybe the other way around, I'm guessing (??).  

 

Any tips on the above would be gratefully received!  I like to make the organisations, equipment and call signs as accurate as I possibly can.

 

Cheers

Frankly , these vehicles will not really have callsigns, as they are used to form the company HQ.

No manouvre element , often no radio on board ==> no callsign

 

There will be the callsign for the company HQ, but these are usually cover-names

On map, simply mark as "HQ" of "GefStd(H)" or "GefStd(R)"

Edited by Grenny

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On 6/8/2019 at 8:16 PM, Grenny said:

Frankly , these vehicles will not really have callsigns, as they are used to form the company HQ.

No manouvre element , often no radio on board ==> no callsign

 

There will be the callsign for the company HQ, but these are usually cover-names

On map, simply mark as "HQ" of "GefStd(H)" or "GefStd(R)"

Thanks @Grenny, appreciate the input.  I'll use more generic call signs for these vehicles.  More for my benefit as I think about organising the vehicles in their "platoons" in the scenario, would:

  • The XO most likely be found in the M113 (fitted as a command post as I understand it) or the Wolf?
  • And, if the XO is in the M113 would the company sergeant major (German equivalent) be in the Wolf or vice versa?

Finally, would you expect the bergepanzer and M113 medic from battalion to be organised with these HQ units or kept separate?  At the moment I'm anticipating a combined "platoon" or echelon with perhaps the M113 separate as an XO's CP, depending on your answer above.

 

This will help me organise the HQ and attachments as best I can for the next iteration of the scenario, which I'm hoping to play test by the weekend.

 

Cheers  

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Rhys,

 

Happy to share my RT19 first scenario ORBAT if it helps (refer the PowerPoint I believe you already have).

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3 hours ago, Panzer_Leader said:

... would:

  • The XO most likely be found in the M113 (fitted as a command post as I understand it) or the Wolf?
  • And, if the XO is in the M113 would the company sergeant major (German equivalent) be in the Wolf or vice versa?

Finally, would you expect the bergepanzer and M113 medic from battalion to be organised with these HQ units or kept separate?  At the moment I'm anticipating a combined "platoon" or echelon with perhaps the M113 separate as an XO's CP, depending on your answer above.

XO: Wolf

CSM (="Spieß"/KpFw in (semi-)official Bundeswehr parlance): Unimog

BPz and Medic are probably closer to the CO, though organizing them under the XO as a mixed platoon would elevate his role from a mere backup.

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Posted (edited)

Okay, following input from @Grenny and @Ssnake, here's where I've got to:

1999740690_HQcallsigns.png.5f6f39716e8dd8de62b01031261c4909.png

 

I've left the the BergTrp (Wisent ARV) and SanTrp (M113A3/Medic) separate per earlier scenario version 2.1 (these call signs were based on input from @Duke(911)), though combined at scenario start.  I've then created a separate "section" of the same "platoon" with the KpFW [CSM] (Unimog 1300L/Supply, MG3), Stellv. [XO] (MB 240GD) and "YYY" (M113A2G, no troops).  I appreciate this is getting tedious but, what I'd really like to understand is, what is the best "call sign" (even if they didn't actually have one) for the M113A2G in this context?  I should then be good to go.

 

The beauty of this arrangement is that all call signs are part of one platoon and can all be combined, allowing the XO to run all call signs, or put the BergTrp and SanTrp closer to the CO and run a second "section" with XO, CSM and M113A2G, or split the XO's MB 240GD out on its own ultimately.

 

Here's how it will look at mission start:

1601575344_HQcallsigns_Start.png.fd01f9ce2c16a36f2c139ce7fac22614.png

 

This way you know from the unit graphics one "section" is primarily supply and the other recovery (and medic).  I'll probably remove any annotations in closed brackets from the call signs before publication.

 

Thanks for your patience with my undiagnosed OCD and please let me know if you have any further comments before I adopt this call sign structure :)   

Edited by Panzer_Leader

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I'd shorten "KpFüGrp" to "KpFü" mostly for brevity; besides, "everybody knows" (...) it's a group (but even if you don't, the failure is inconsequential).

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On 6/14/2019 at 10:45 PM, Ssnake said:

I'd shorten "KpFüGrp" to "KpFü" mostly for brevity; besides, "everybody knows" (...) it's a group (but even if you don't, the failure is inconsequential).

Thanks @Ssnake I’ll make that change in the CS template.

 

One last favour (I hope): can you please provide your recommended call sign for the M113 in the headquarters?

 

I don’t have a “best guess” for this one and would like to finalise it before play-testing and publishing the scenario update, hopefully in the next week.

 

Thanks again!

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They would be assigned from the 1st COY's (BN staff/support/logistics company) signals platoon; they're not an organic asset of the regular combat companies. 1st company is pretty large, about 3...4 times as large as the regular maneuver company. They had their own recce/liaison platoon with the "biker gang" (about a dozen motorcycles, and another dozen light off-road trucks such as Iltis (later Mercedes G)), the signals platoon, a supply platoon, and the BN workshop "platoon" which alone is about 1.5 times a normal company's size. Plus BN HQ staff members (less officers), etc.

 

So, I'd make those M113s 2nd platoon of 1st COY.

 

This is all from memory (I started my career in said biker gang), but the beauty of HS IV is that much of this is actually transferrable from tanks to armored cav, at least as far as the 1st company of a battalion is concerned. The TO&E for 1st companies in mech/armor/cav units is pretty similar.

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