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Challenger 2 Speeds, Armour and penetration.

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The only thing is, we would be modeling the interior of a simulator if you took more of those pictures. Most of the stuff are the same, but having been in an M1 simulator, I know that 1/2 of a simulator interior is generic. It would be a simulated interior model of a simulator interior. :biggrin: Still, it is certainly better than nothing of course...

And for this tank?

french_army_military_parade_14_july_2008_france_paris_bastille_day_army_recognition_magazine_035.jpg

I can found hundred of high resolution shots...

http://engins-blindes-francais.wifeo.com/dernier-leclerc-livr-au-501-503rcc.php

And this me and is my last tank

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Well, we'd also need a description of the fire control system, crew procedures, and of course a gratuitous application of measure tape to allow us to build a decent model of it. As usual, I am all for adding more (playable) tanks in SB Pro if the conditions to do it are right.

If you think you can arrange a video/photo/sound recording session for us, I'll be happy to spend a week in France. :)

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"snip"

:)

And this is why I love ESim games.

If only they would produce a constant online war sim. Like World War II Online... only with real research and talent.

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Well, we'd also need a description of the fire control system, crew procedures, and of course a gratuitous application of measure tape to allow us to build a decent model of it. As usual, I am all for adding more (playable) tanks in SB Pro if the conditions to do it are right.

If you think you can arrange a video/photo/sound recording session for us, I'll be happy to spend a week in France. :)

I would settle for a good DPRK or even PRC setup. With their "new" tanks. Granted they still have the same old guns... 115mm and 125.

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I just want everyone to know that for TGIF we played a T-72M1 attack versus a Challenger 2 defense and we (T-72M1) got our butts kicked -- mostly due to my terrible plan of course. The Challenger is a tough nut to crack and quite powerful enough at kill us at extreme ranges. The moral of the story: put it against what it was made to fight.

Anyway, looks like I need to re-balance the scenario numerically. For some reason, I fell victim to the idea that the Challenger 2 would be a push over (because of this thread no doubt) so I only had Red at a 1.5 : 1 advantage on the attack, when it most definitely looks like they need at least the standard deliberate attack ratio of 3 : 1 against the Challenger 2. Oh well, back to the drawing board. Thanks to everyone for playing it.

FWIW, if you have an M1 or Leo2 versus Challenger 2 with both of the former on the attack then 1.5 : 1 would probably work fine.

Edited by Volcano
clarification

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I just want everyone to know that for TGIF we played a T-72M1 attack versus a Challenger 2 defense and we (T-72M1) got our butts kicked --

Sorry I missed it. :)

Was off trying to drum up some local user interest. See you this "Friday". :)

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a quick google image search for challenger 2 penetrated, will reveal most of this.

Well I did just that at my workplace about a minute ago, and could barely dodge an IT warning because the local system was assuming I was going for porn! LOL challenger 2 "penetrated".... Yeah I'm dirty!

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challenger2penetrated.png

there was a big uproar about this. the driver lost his leg, and british mothers were cursing the army for misinforming their sons about the challenger being impenetrable, and resulted in the ERA on the front of the hull being swapped out with a thick slab of dorchester armour.

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there was a big uproar about this. the driver lost his leg, and british mothers were cursing the army for misinforming their sons about the challenger being impenetrable, and resulted in the ERA on the front of the hull being swapped out with a thick slab of dorchester armour.

Everyone should have been singing praises that the RPG didn't impact the driver's vision block area. It could have been much worse.

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Hmmm...

Does not sound promising... Just as a ballistic idea of the pure power we had at our fingertips in '03 with the Chally 2 without giving away any OPSEC...

We stopped using our (DU) FIN rounds and could fire the DST (FIN Training rounds) straight through Iraqi T-72's... Through the front armour, through the turret systems, through the power pack, out the back... We had to stop using them too because they were continuing to travel after hitting our targets in built-up areas, it started to get messy...

I have seen DST rounds travel through 100m hills and still hit the center of the observed mass down in Lulworth when I was training...

I can't tell you how fast these rounds travel (OPSEC), but just as an idea the FIN round on the CR2 does not use a trace element because it travels too fast for the human eye to see... Some 3x-4x faster then the German or American 120...

Anyways... If it is in the game now, once I'm on leave in 10 days I'll have to order the upgrade and see...

Ssnake, mate if you need info let me know... Obviously keeping in mind OPSEC... My emails still the same... Hope all is well, it's been a while... My internet in this area of the world leaves much to be desired...

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challenger2penetrated.png

there was a big uproar about this. the driver lost his leg, and british mothers were cursing the army for misinforming their sons about the challenger being impenetrable, and resulted in the ERA on the front of the hull being swapped out with a thick slab of dorchester armour.

Oh man... So wrong... So, so wrong... I know this lad as I served with em... We went out in Castle Martin and drank out of his prosthetic leg... Then he beat the crap outta a local and was getting done for GBH... Funny as feck...

It was not an RPG at all... Some buallzy Iraqi put a shaped charge big enough to sink a frecken destroyer on the hull and blew it... If... Lets call em Steph-ahn was sitting in his seat properly he would have died... But, the lads got em out and now he's diffy a leg but prof'ed 2 houses and a couple of cars... Insurance... He's also still serving with 2 RTR in Shitworth...

Anyways... We had a Scotts DG wagon take 7-9 RPG hits in one serving... They replaced their Epies and were back in the next day... Chally 2 is combat proven as the best wagon in the world... Hands down... I love the Leo 2, but as an example if we had to fight China in a stand up... I would ride again in the CR2... No questions...

Stupid media and their lies...

(I served almost a decade with 2 RTR on the Chally 2, this is why I know this)

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I can't tell you how fast these rounds travel (OPSEC), but just as an idea the FIN round on the CR2 does not use a trace element because it travels too fast for the human eye to see... Some 3x-4x faster then the German or American 120...

so about 5400-7200m/s. didn't know the british army had started fielding railguns...

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Oh man... So wrong... So, so wrong... I know this lad as I served with em... We went out in Castle Martin and drank out of his prosthetic leg... Then he beat the crap outta a local and was getting done for GBH... Funny as feck...

It was not an RPG at all... Some buallzy Iraqi put a shaped charge big enough to sink a frecken destroyer on the hull and blew it... If... Lets call em Steph-ahn was sitting in his seat properly he would have died... But, the lads got em out and now he's diffy a leg but prof'ed 2 houses and a couple of cars... Insurance... He's also still serving with 2 RTR in Shitworth...

Anyways... We had a Scotts DG wagon take 7-9 RPG hits in one serving... They replaced their Epies and were back in the next day... Chally 2 is combat proven as the best wagon in the world... Hands down... I love the Leo 2, but as an example if we had to fight China in a stand up... I would ride again in the CR2... No questions...

front armour of chally is at an angle, and there was a layer of ERA before it. if a ballsy iraqi came along and stuck a shaped charge on the front, it'd penetrate upwards, and not even hit the armour.

first picture is before the incident, second picture is after it.

challyuparmour.jpg

wonder why they felt the need to improve the front armour..

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I have seen DST rounds travel through 100m hills and still hit the center of the observed mass down in Lulworth when I was training...

Uh, that realy sounds credible.

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Oh man... So wrong... So, so wrong... I know this lad as I served with em... We went out in Castle Martin and drank out of his prosthetic leg... Then he beat the crap outta a local and was getting done for GBH... Funny as feck...

It was not an RPG at all... Some buallzy Iraqi put a shaped charge big enough to sink a frecken destroyer on the hull and blew it... If... Lets call em Steph-ahn was sitting in his seat properly he would have died... But, the lads got em out and now he's diffy a leg but prof'ed 2 houses and a couple of cars... Insurance... He's also still serving with 2 RTR in Shitworth...

Stupid media and their lies...

Do you think we're stupid? I'd say the credibility problem is not so much the accepted report of the events, but the yarns you're spinning here.

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I can't tell you how fast these rounds travel (OPSEC), but just as an idea the FIN round on the CR2 does not use a trace element because it travels too fast for the human eye to see... Some 3x-4x faster then the German or American 120...

So you understand this couldn't possibly make sense- even if you had these rounds that broke all speed records that for some reason even the US doesn't have, you think that a tracer moving at 3x - 4x the normal documented speeds is too fast for the eye to register? Have you ever seen an electrical arc before? Ever seen lightening strike?

By the way, if the speed is classified, you've all but spilled the beans, since all we have to do is multiply by a factor of 3 or 4 as you state it.

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Gosh...people, don't get all wound up.

Maybe Somnus is exagerating a "bit" on the FIN speed...but 3 to 4x of US/GE rounds is a bit hard to get with chemical propulsion ;-).

True is: below 1500m its quiete hard to observe s shot as you vision will be obscoured(dust 'n stuff) till the round hits.

But that true for the M1/Leo2 also

But on what exactly pierced the CR2...only some iraqy rag-head and maybe the tank crew+some MoD BDA team members know.

A Shaped-charge-IED? Hard to get it there...so I believe the RPG-29 story is more plausible. After all, the RPG-29 is quiete a potent weapon.

On the 100m hills and still center mass...I'd call a wah ;-) (even with a hill of very lose and very dry sand)

Anyway: We all have been told by our peers that OURs is the most bad-ass death maschine on the planet(called:"building confidence with the equipment"), who would like to hear:"You are facing the enemy in the worlds 3rd best tank."

So, I take everything a tank-walloper says about his ride with a good pinch of salt.

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The name of the crew member wounded in this incident isn't OPSEC and is already known. The individual is reported as Trooper Sean Chance, obviating the need for a pseudonym such as Steph-ahn. This isn't being done in the name of OPSEC so much to provide a cover for a fairy tale being told here.

Sorry, but the details being relayed are too far fetched to be believed. The sum of all of them creates just a sort of comedy. I guess that's the fall back plan- one could always say it was all meant to be a joke when people become suspicious. That's the beauty of it. If people go along with it, the tall tale has done its job. If people know it's nonsense, then you can rely on the old trick that it wasn't meant to be serious. I think he's being quite serious- why the rant about how the media screwed it all up? Where does that fit in a joke? That's meant to shore up the idea that he has the inside scoop, he has to do that in order to discredit the accepted version.

We shouldn't believe it was an RPG-29 hitting a weak spot, but we should believe it was a charge some Iraqi ran up and attached to the hull. Sorry lads, sorry. OPSEC. The feck all hell ininnit, aye, to be sure. OPSEC, you know, if you want to know more, OPSEC, believe you me.

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so about 5400-7200m/s. didn't know the british army had started fielding railguns...

With is muzzle velocity of 1790m/s, the OFL F1/CN 120-26 is already near the max speed we can achieve with the current powder technology.

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With is muzzle velocity of 1790m/s, the OFL F1/CN 120-26 is already near the max speed we can achieve with the current powder technology.

Apparently not... 4 * 1790 = 7160 m/s (LMFAO)

...I can't tell you how fast these rounds travel (OPSEC), but just as an idea the FIN round on the CR2 does not use a trace element because it travels too fast for the human eye to see... Some 3x-4x faster then the German or American 120...

Mog

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Being classified and all, it makes sense that no one has ever heard of extraordinary muzzle velocities. Then he commits a breech of OPSEC by telling you how to calculate to get that figure, so now you've heard of it.

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Hmmm...

Does not sound promising... Just as a ballistic idea of the pure power we had at our fingertips in '03 with the Chally 2 without giving away any OPSEC...

We stopped using our (DU) FIN rounds and could fire the DST (FIN Training rounds) straight through Iraqi T-72's... Through the front armour, through the turret systems, through the power pack, out the back... We had to stop using them too because they were continuing to travel after hitting our targets in built-up areas, it started to get messy...

I have seen DST rounds travel through 100m hills and still hit the center of the observed mass down in Lulworth when I was training...

I can't tell you how fast these rounds travel (OPSEC), but just as an idea the FIN round on the CR2 does not use a trace element because it travels too fast for the human eye to see... Some 3x-4x faster then the German or American 120...

Anyways... If it is in the game now, once I'm on leave in 10 days I'll have to order the upgrade and see...

Ssnake, mate if you need info let me know... Obviously keeping in mind OPSEC... My emails still the same... Hope all is well, it's been a while... My internet in this area of the world leaves much to be desired...

Well that's weird,

cause there is this information via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2

It talks about a program call CLIP which states:

The Challenger Lethality Improvement Programme (CLIP) is a programme to replace the current L30A1 rifled gun with the 120 mm Rheinmetall L55 smoothbore gun currently used in the Leopard 2A6. The use of a smoothbore weapon allows Challenger 2 to use NATO standard ammunition developed in Germany and the US. This includes tungsten-based kinetic energy penetrators, which do not have the same political and environmental objections as depleted uranium rounds. The production lines for rifled 120 mm ammunition in the UK have been closed for some years, so existing stocks of ammunition for the L30A1 are finite.[17]

A single Challenger 2 was fitted with the L55 and underwent trials in January 2006.[18] The smoothbore gun is the same length as the L30A1, and is fitted with the rifled gun's cradle, thermal sleeve, bore evacuator and muzzle reference system. Early trials apparently revealed that the German tungsten DM53 round was more effective than the depleted uranium CHARM 3.[8] The ammunition storage and handling arrangements will need to be changed to cater for the single-piece smoothbore rounds, instead of the separate-loading rifled rounds. In 2006, a figure of £386 million was estimated to fit all Challengers in the British Army with the Rheinmetall gun.[17]

Other improvements have also been considered, including a regenerative NBC protection system.[19]

In May 2007, the Ministry of Defence's Future Systems Group invited BAE to tender for the Challenger 2 Capability Sustainment Program (C2 CSP), which combined all upgrades into one programme. However, by mid-2008, the programme was in danger of slipping, or even being cancelled, as a result of defence budget shortfalls.[20]

Might want to look at this part: Early trials apparently revealed that the German tungsten DM53 round was more effective than the depleted uranium CHARM 3 and I find it hard to believe it would be a training round at that. Dont really believe what you say and from what I've have read, nobody else does either.

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Well that's weird,

cause there is this information via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2

It talks about a program call CLIP which states:

The Challenger Lethality Improvement Programme (CLIP) is a programme to replace the current L30A1 rifled gun with the 120 mm Rheinmetall L55 smoothbore gun currently used in the Leopard 2A6. The use of a smoothbore weapon allows Challenger 2 to use NATO standard ammunition developed in Germany and the US. This includes tungsten-based kinetic energy penetrators, which do not have the same political and environmental objections as depleted uranium rounds. The production lines for rifled 120 mm ammunition in the UK have been closed for some years, so existing stocks of ammunition for the L30A1 are finite.[17]

A single Challenger 2 was fitted with the L55 and underwent trials in January 2006.[18] The smoothbore gun is the same length as the L30A1, and is fitted with the rifled gun's cradle, thermal sleeve, bore evacuator and muzzle reference system. Early trials apparently revealed that the German tungsten DM53 round was more effective than the depleted uranium CHARM 3.[8] The ammunition storage and handling arrangements will need to be changed to cater for the single-piece smoothbore rounds, instead of the separate-loading rifled rounds. In 2006, a figure of £386 million was estimated to fit all Challengers in the British Army with the Rheinmetall gun.[17]

Other improvements have also been considered, including a regenerative NBC protection system.[19]

In May 2007, the Ministry of Defence's Future Systems Group invited BAE to tender for the Challenger 2 Capability Sustainment Program (C2 CSP), which combined all upgrades into one programme. However, by mid-2008, the programme was in danger of slipping, or even being cancelled, as a result of defence budget shortfalls.[20]

Might want to look at this part: Early trials apparently revealed that the German tungsten DM53 round was more effective than the depleted uranium CHARM 3 and I find it hard to believe it would be a training round at that. Dont really believe what you say and from what I've have read, nobody else does either.

Had they fitted the L55. The challenger would have been on par with any tank in the world.

Its a dam shame they didn't.

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