Top Tank Platoon 2011 (discussion thread)

[Tacbat]

You forgot the first "P", proper.

[Tango29]

You forgot the first "P", proper.

PPPPPP = "Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance." Just six "P's" the way I learned it, but I am a really old guy: might have changed! :)

Besides, in what passes for my experience, my second definition was the more usual state of affairs! :cul:

[Gibsonm]

PPPPPP = "Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance." Just six "P's" the way I learned it, but I am a really old guy: might have changed! :)

Besides, in what passes for my experience, my second definition was the more usual state of affairs! :cul:

Well just to add another variation:

"Prior Preparation Planning Practice Prevents Piss-Poor Performance."

I understand that the third last "P" is no longer taught on our junior leader's courses in these politically correct times, which cuts it to "7 P's".

[Ssnake]

You realize however that "Prior" and "Preparation" and "Planning" are tautological to each other.

That's a lot of black dot sprinkled Dalmatians with dots there. :mrgreen:

[Hedgehog]

Well just to add another variation:

"Prior Preparation Planning Practice Prevents Piss-Poor Performance."

I understand that the third last "P" is no longer taught on our junior leader's courses in these politically correct times, which cuts it to "7 P's".

Is the Military short hand for that "P(8)" ?

Grandad had a saying as well:

"Get over difficult ground as lightly as possible"

Probably because the difficult ground was a minefield somewhere around El-Alamein. :confused:

[SeanPatrick]

Well, my Grandfather always used to say "What's thin and white?"

And if anyone knows the answer please tell me because he died before he could tell me. :biggrin:

[Ssnake]

Paper?

How thin and how white exactly shall it be?

[SeanPatrick]

I don't know. I guessed everything I could think of from clouds to string to myself. (I am thin and white.) Maybe he was just messing with me.

[Volcano]

Hello all,

Game 2 results have been posted and stats updated. Thanks for everyone showing up and playing -- it was a very tense fight!

[Assassin 7]

Just wanted to take time out to say Congrats to the Woverines. We had very good communication amoung us, lets keep up the good work and learn from our mistakes from this mission. Just like Volcano said it was very intense and We were on our last breath at the end of the mission.

[Volcano]

Not sure if my message is getting through, so I will post it here:

I am told that Game 1 is scheduled to be played on Wednesday, April 18th. While it is certainly every team's prerogative to play the match whenever they want before the deadline, April 18th happens to be the day of the deadline. If at all possible you guys should try to play before that and always use "the day of" as a last resort. In my experience from last year, it is always better to play the match as soon as possible and use the last days in emergency only, playing with whatever teammates you can muster at that point. My worry here is that we have had two weeks to play the match and yet it is only getting played on the very last day; waiting until the end of the deadline is not setting a good standard going forward.

Speaking of which, if the deadline comes and goes then I will usually decide who won with a flip of the coin. I don't think anyone wants that happen. Anyway, this is just a friendly suggestion to try to play the match this weekend if possible, then use Wednesday as a last resort.

[Volcano]

In other news, does anyone who participated in Game 2 have an AAR that contained the score info in it? The AAR I have has a blank score. I did get the score out of the .html report file so we are good there, but the AAR I have hosted for everyone to review has no scoring info and I would rather replace it with a better AAR file.

[Assassin 7]

In other news, does anyone who participated in Game 2 have an AAR that contained the score info in it? The AAR I have has a blank score. I did get the score out of the .html report file so we are good there, but the AAR I have hosted for everyone to review has no scoring info and I would rather replace it with a better AAR file.

No I dont, I will ask my team to see

[Volcano]

Ok, we found a bug here which will be fixed for the next upgrade. Basically, the score is shown normally in the AAR when the scenario ends (unless there a bad case of lag), but when the AAR is loaded up later the score is not present. Unfortunately that means that looking at the AARs which are posted on the TTP 2011 wiki page will have no scores in them, but you can always figure out the scores when I make the score sheet available to all at the end of the tournament.

[Volcano]

Hello all,

Game 1 results have been posted and stats updated. Thanks for everyone showing up and playing!

With that, round 1 is now complete. The tournament tree has been updated and everyone should be coordinating match times to play ASAP. Deadline for Round 2 is midnight CST, APR 25.

GOOD LUCK!

[Volcano]

Hello all,

Games 3 and 4 results have been posted and stats updated. Thanks for everyone showing up and playing!

With that, Round 2 is now complete. The tournament tree has been updated and everyone should be coordinating match times to play ASAP. Deadline for Round 3 is midnight CST, MAY 2.

GOOD LUCK!

/////////////////////

Some notes/corrections...

1) I noticed a problem in the scenario relating to the score regarding the strength points. Basically the minimum score for the losing side was 350 and the maximum score for the winning side was 650, this was due to a faulty formula in my strength calculation (basically points relating to strength on both sides were not working, both sides were getting 350 points for their own unit's survival, whether they survived or not). This has now been fixed and I will go back and recalculate all the match scores for Round 1 and Round 2 shortly (it should be easy to figure out).

2) I noticed that there was some confusion with me referencing "GMT" as the time. Apparently (correct me if I am wrong please), "GMT" is referring to the appropriate time zone during fall hours, but during spring/summer it is instead referred to as "BST" (British Summer Time, if I don't want to use a +1 modifier on the very same time zone I am referring to) or "GMT+1". In any case, I hope I cleared that up now as I have changed the times to "GMT+1". If there is a better way to do it then please let me know. I was looking for a uniform reference that is inherently adjusted depending on the time zone (for example, "CST" is Central Standard Time and it stays that abbreviation regardless of the season -- we base the time of other time zones on the fact that we are shifting together in the northern hemisphere). Anyway, I hope it is more clear now.

3) There was an instance tonight where we started to the Planning Phase and one of the side's tanks did not spawn on the map (instead they were off the map with routes in all directions). If this happens to you, just let the other side know and both of you should go back to Assembly Area and load the planning phase again. This should only be a very rare occurrence where the random variable falls exactly between two cases (a one in 100 chance, or perhaps an 8 in 100 chance to be exact), so it is not very likely to happen again.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Volcano

[Tacbat]

If there is a better way to do it then please let me know.

Use Zulu (Z) time. It doesn't change, although people will have to do some basic math. I thought that GMT was the same as Zulu, which is also the same as UTC. Anyway, here's the link http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx

[Gibsonm]

Zulu is GMT is UTC is the reference point for time and never changes.

If GMT moved everything would change.

Its a bit like saying this week 1m = 120cm or for the US people 1yd = 4 feet.

Its only "local" variations to that so British Summer Time = GMT + 1

As mentioned before you can use this site:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html

To input you "local" time for something and it well generate a bunch of relative "local" times in multiple cities.

So for example the next BG ANZAC meeting is at 0900 Zulu/GMT/UTC on 26 April but this:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20120426T09

lists the local time for that in about 100 cities around the world.

[Volcano]

Use Zulu (Z) time. It doesn't change, although people will have to do some basic math. I thought that GMT was the same as Zulu, which is also the same as UTC. Anyway, here's the link http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx

Thanks guys, I suppose I just refer to it all as GMT+1 in spring/summer and fall/winter as just GMT -- hopefully we can all figure out the already obvious.

[SeanPatrick]

Ahh..UTC. A subject near and dear to my heart (being a celestial navigation nerd.) You wouldn't believe just how complicated this subject can get.

Here's a small sample from a USNO publication for determining "delta-T". :sonic:

UT2-UT1 = 0.022 sin(2*pi*T) - 0.012 cos(2*pi*T)

- 0.006 sin(4*pi*T) + 0.007 cos(4*pi*T)

where pi = 3.14159265... and T is the date in Besselian years.

TT = TAI + 32.184 seconds

DUT1= (UT1-UTC) transmitted with time signals

= -0.5 seconds beginning 09 Feb 2012 at 0000 UTC

= -0.6 seconds beginning 10 May 2012 at 0000 UTC

Beginning 1 January 2009:

TAI-UTC = 34.000 000 seconds

BTW, GMT isn't exactly the same as UTC:

The term Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) does not have a precise definition at the subsecond level, but it is often considered equivalent to UTC or UT1. Saying "GMT" often implies either UTC or UT1 when used within informal or casual contexts. In technical contexts, usage of "GMT" is avoided; the unambiguous terminology "UTC" or "UT1" is preferred.

I know...TMI...

[Volcano]

Some notes/corrections...

Ah, I forgot to add one more thing:

I made a copy/paste mistake on the previous tourney tree stating that the final championship match will be "best of 3". Since this is a "short tournament" (as compared to TTP 2010), the final championship will instead be a longer best of 5 matchup. Obviously for the sake of practicality this means that the championship will likely need to be played over a two week / two round period. I will provide more information on that when the time comes.

[Tonywjones44]

Zulu is GMT is UTC is the reference point for time and never changes.

If GMT moved everything would change.

And the difference between GMT and Local time is a variable known as Rorke's Drift.

[Tacbat]

For the "Eh-Team", send me a PM if you can make this Sunday at 1500 CST.

Fidel, check your PM account, it's over it's limit.

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

[Volcano]

Hello everyone,

Game 6 has been reported to me however I am still working on updating the results; I will do so shortly. My apologies though: there seem to have been an error in my strength points scoring which I have now fixed so that it shouldn't happen again (the strength points were being determined by the whole platoon being killed to get the points, rather than awarding points for each vehicle kill -- easy fix). For the record, the score should have been:

Red (3rd Arm Wolverines) = 475

87.5 for ONE friendly tank remaining + 87.5 for ONE enemy tank kill + 300 for the OBJ (I will explain why they had the objective at the bottom of this post)

Blue (Team Heidegeist) = 525

87.5 x 3 for THREE friendly tanks remaining + 87.5 x 3 for THREE enemy tank kils

...and since Blue has a higher score, they are the winner (side with higher score is what determines the winner). Unfortunately the score reported in the match was Red = 350 and Blue = 1000, so the result is no different, just the score is incorrect and will be fixed as soon as I figure out the problem in the scoring condition (I think it happened in the score scaling).

--------------------

An explanation how objective ownership works if anyone wants to know is here:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Top_Tank_Platoon#Central_Objective_Ownership

But, to explain it in other words...

Basically the center objective is "controlled" by a side once they have a tank enter the empty objective for the first time. Once that happens, it belongs to them even if they leave the region (think of it like a switch being turned on). However, if the enemy gets a tank into the region later after it is empty again, then it will change hands and the enemy will own it. In the case where both sides have one tank in the objective, the owner will be the side that seized control of it most recently and ownership will not change hands until either the current owning side's tank is eliminated or disabled OR the moment that the non owning side moves in another tank and outnumbers the other side. Note that if two tanks are in the objective and one is heavily damaged/disabled then it will indeed lose ownership to the enemy if the enemy's tank is fully operational.

So, that said, the reason Red ended up owning the objective at the end is because of the following:

~13:49 RED entered it first, establishing control

~39:59 BLUE enters it, but RED has a tank in it still, so RED still owns the objective

~40:24 RED exits the objective, and BLUE is still in it so BLUE now owns the objective

~40:44 RED enters the objective again and BLUE is in it still, so BLUE maintains control

IF the RED tank did not exit at ~40:24 then they would have maintained control over it, and if one side outnumbered the other or killed off the other in it then it would have changed hands again.

As I said, this doesn't really matter as to the outcome, I am just explaining how the region ownership works in SB in case there any confusion.

And, as mentioned, the score problem has been fixed and shouldn't happen again. :biggrin:

[Duke(911)]

Servus,

So, that said, the reason Red ended up owning the objective at the end is because of the following:

~13:49 RED entered it first, establishing control

~39:59 BLUE enters it, but RED has a tank in it still, so RED still owns the objective

~40:24 RED exits the objective, and BLUE is still in it so BLUE now owns the objective

~40:44 RED enters the objective again and BLUE is in it still, so BLUE maintains control

IF the RED tank did not exit at ~40:24 then they would have maintained control over it, and if one side outnumbered the other or killed off the other in it then it would have changed hands again.

As I said, this doesn't really matter as to the outcome, I am just explaining how the region ownership works in SB in case there any confusion.

And, as mentioned, the score problem has been fixed and shouldn't happen again.

You are right, it doesn`t matter. But why they got 300 points for break off the scenario. Ok I understand what you mean, but it is not ok to cancel a scenario before time is over.

In next sceanrio I will host, move in the obj and will break off the sceanrio, and win?

kind regards

Duke