Another Potential Map?

[DarkAngel]

Here are some screen captures from a GIS project of mine. This is a reference map of Germany as it related to "Known" Cold war scenarios. I also use it to keep track of which areas have SB maps (the Yellow squares). It strikes me there is potentially a map missing. That is the area between the Wolfsburg / Hanover Combo to the north and Fulda gap (& Hunfeld) to the south. It would appear from the 2 maps that a large probable soviet attack would go through this region to be contested by the BW. I'm just wondering why its never been suggested?. Is the area unsuitable for Armoured warfare?. Who was supposed to be holding this area (specifically)?.

I'm really surprised that there isn't a Kassel Run, to match the Fulda Gap. I wonder if anyone could do it in less than 12 par-secs?.

Probable_Axes_of_Attack_C.rar

Defence Responsibilities C.rar

Maps Close up.rar

[Gibsonm]

Well I'm guessing it due to the poor terrain (not really conducive to a high speed avenue of approach, namely the rugged terrain from Kassel west to Dusseldorf).

I suspect that is reinforced by that sector being given to the Belgians (no offence intended) with the Brits, Germans and Yanks allocated the higher probability / high threat routes.

[Alicatt]

Well I'm guessing it due to the poor terrain (not really conducive to a high speed avenue of approach, namely the rugged terrain from Kassel west to Dusseldorf).

I suspect that is reinforced by that sector being given to the Belgians (no offence intended) with the Brits, Germans and Yanks allocated the higher probability / high threat routes.

Hang we don't even have "Tanks" any longer here, just the Piranha 3C with a 90mm gun.

http://lucdejaeger.smugmug.com/Military/Belgian-Army-Base-Legerbasis/3057698_qxc8RX/166622138_u28Sa#!i=1304055651&k=djTPmXV

Taken at the local army base open day, we see these vehicles passing by most days

[Gibsonm]

Yes, but I suspect the suggested time frame for scenarios involving these maps is before the wall in Berlin came down.

[DarkAngel]

I think I have flag dyslexia, I saw it as a German flag. Didn't notice the stripe direction :eek2:!!

It certainly looks from the probable axis of attacks layer that there is a very thick arrow through that region.

[Eisenschwein]

Here is a deployment Map of the General Defence Plan (GDP) for Central Europe.

Here you see 1st NL Korps is not marching in and it consists of 6 German mech. Brigades. My GDP Area with PzGrenBrig 7 was in that Area too.

You also see 1st Korps (BR) and 1st Korps (BE) are to defend in the deep in the Area of the "Sauerland".

Sauerland is the Area west of KASSEL. This Area isn´t usable for a quick attack with Ground Force. Why?

There are not enough Roads from East to West!

Hope it helps.....

[PincerDK]

Here are some pictures from Danube Front 85' by HPS Simulations.

I have used the excellent mod Bolt Out Of The Blue for these pictures and of course the invaluable Mapmod. Volcano's mod for some of the unit pictures.

That's probably what you are talking about Eisenschwein regarding the roads? There's only 2-3 main roads and 1 highway on the map to Kassel.

The German 2. Panzergrenadier Division (blue occopying Kassel) although outnumbered, would have no problem defending Kassel from these roads. The Soviet 20 Guards Motorized Rifle Division (red background with blue markings standing ready to move into West Germany) would have to be quite aggressive in order to get further into West Germany. It takes a lot of turns moving through that forest!

Although the distance is almost the same as that from the Border to Fulda or Bad Hersfeld.

Anyone heard of a Kassel Gap? :smile:

Kassel Run.rar

[DarkAngel]

Thanks for the info Guys. Pincer I had never heard of a Kassel gap. It just appeared from the Axes of attack layer that something would be happening there.

[PincerDK]

Naah didn't think there would be one either.

But given the short distance and relative easy access to a big city, It kind of fit the definition of a gap.

Fulda Gap: close distance to Fulda city or Bad Hersfeld. Even then operational close distance to Frankfurt.

But yes interesting map and interesting question. New maps of Germany would be nice for Steel Beasts. The only problem is the huge amount of time it takes to make a proper terrain map.

[Ssnake]

You never heard of a Kassel Gap because there is none. The terrain isn't an absolute tank barrier - few terrains really are - but as others pointed out, the overall road capacity from East to West is rather limited, which is a prime consideration not only for the advance of your troops, but even more so for the logistics tail which is enormous for all armored and mechanized units, even under the Soviet Doctrine where they actually tried to keep the tail as lean as possible.

I confess that I encouraged a number of map designers to focus their attention to the Hannover area. Okay, in parts I was selfish. In parts it was because all the major operations that we played through at Officiers' School were in that area, and I haven't given up hope that one day I may be able to use these exercises as blueprints to small campaigns.

The prime reason however is the diversity of terrain. In the east, there's quite a bit of swamp, in the south you get the wooded hills of central Germany, in the north you have the southern edge of the North German Plain which is very close to what one might consider "ideal tank country", and in the west you have a large river (the Weser) which can serve both as an operational goal/last defensive stand/final challenge to overcome with bridging/engineering operations. And right in the middle, Hannover with its 500,000 inhabitants is large enough to allow for extensive urban operations, if a scenario designer would want to attempt that.

Finally, with comparatively little effort I can drive around and take photos at nearly any time I want in order to give 3D modelers some reference images for buildings and other notable terrain features.

All these reasons combined made for a compelling argument to have a look at the areas that were actually chosen.

[PincerDK]

Understandable, and with the recent updates that has been on the Hannover Map it is very usable as basis for a scenario. I have recently been working on a scenario that is taking place between Rinteln to Hameln. It depicts a battle between a Canadian combat team and a motorized rifle battalion in a deliberate defence. The restrictive nature of the valley and the river in that area makes it quite interesting although the canadians probably wouldn't have been deployed this high up north.

[Gibsonm]

So the Canadians are attacking at roughly 1:3 odds?

Sounds like a Dieppe re-run.

[PincerDK]

Well, It is not exactly a 1:3 odds.

The canadians are attacking with a company of 2 M113A1 platoons and 1 Leopard 1A5 Platoon (4 vehicles), CO, XO, FO, 1 M113 TUA Platoon (Substituted by M901 ITV)

The Motorized rifle battalion has a company in deliberate defence with minefields, pre plotted artillery and with a T-72B platoon and a BRDM-AT Platoon attached (equipped with AT-5).

This would then be a Forward Security Element for the Advance Guard.

When the company is attacked, the Advance Guard composed of the rest of the Motorized Rifle Battalion (-) and the Tank Company (-) will attack the Canadians who hopefully will have enough forces left to prevent this counterattack. Maybe a section of 2 Hinds will help the Soviets, maybe not.

Maybe a British squadron will help the Canadians, maybe not.

[PincerDK]

It is partly inspired by Kenneth Macksey's book First Clash.

[Gibsonm]

Ah sorry though from your earlier post that the CT was attacking the Bn complete.

But I'm not sure I follow as the terms like "Advance Guard" imply that the Soviets are attacking and therefore wouldn't be setting up a "deliberate" defence.

But anyway ...

Good book.

[12Alfa]

Understandable, and with the recent updates that has been on the Hannover Map it is very usable as basis for a scenario. I have recently been working on a scenario that is taking place between Rinteln to Hameln. It depicts a battle between a Canadian combat team and a motorized rifle battalion in a deliberate defence. The restrictive nature of the valley and the river in that area makes it quite interesting although the canadians probably wouldn't have been deployed this high up north.

4CMBG was north of Baden-Baden and in Lahr.

Both maps (1st Clash and Counter stroke) are done and played on.

First Clash has been done by the 1ACD and will return very soon............:eek2:

[Gibsonm]

Is "Counter Stroke" a followup book from Macksey?

[Tacbat]

I think so.

[12Alfa]

Is "Counter Stroke" a followup book from Macksey?

Yes, it played very well in the old version, this version will be a hoot. Almost finished the updating of the maps.:biggrin:

[Volcano]

Here are some pictures from Danube Front 85' by HPS Simulations.

I have used the excellent mod Bolt Out Of The Blue for these pictures and of course the invaluable Mapmod. Volcano's mod for some of the unit pictures.

I heard of this Volcano guy before, man he really gets around. :sonic:

(that's what she said)

[PincerDK]

´Ah sorry though from your earlier post that the CT was attacking the Bn complete.

But I'm not sure I follow as the terms like "Advance Guard" imply that the Soviets are attacking and therefore wouldn't be setting up a "deliberate" defence.

But anyway ...

Good book.

Well, the way I see it is that this company has been designated as the forward security element. It has advanced and has now stopped and put up defensive positions in order to prevent the counterattack by the Canadians.

The advance Guard Main Body is quickly following up and is therefore designated as the reserve that will help this FSE.

Maybe I should remove some of the minefields and artillery and change it to hasty defense, that would probably be more realistic.

On the other hand I could just change the terms. So the Combat reconnaissance patrol I have put up in front of the company, would be the Combat Security Observation Outpost (CSOP) and then the Main Defensive Line would be the rest of the FSE. Maybe change FSE to a regimental Combat Outpost.

A lot of possibilities, I haven't finished the scenario so I'm still deciding on what is what.

But yeah a good book. :-D

4CMBG was north of Baden-Baden and in Lahr.

Yes, true so not exactly in the vicinity of Hameln.

But I couldn't find any other combat teams that would be interesting to use.

The US company team is a bit used, the british don't have all their units in the game, although you could of course use proxies. The germans is also bit used, but would be more realistic.

Maybe a dutch company team from 1989 would also be good, but I don't know how they would operate, probably 2 APC platoons (Which APC?) and 1 Leopard 1 platoon (3 or 4 vehicles?)

First Clash has been done by the 1ACD and will return very soon............

Can't wait.

Yes, it played very well in the old version, this version will be a hoot. Almost finished the updating of the maps.

Is Counterstroke any good compared to First Clash?

I heard of this Volcano guy before, man he really gets around.

(that's what she said)

Yes, Always talking about his superb mod for D'85 and his great knowledge of US tanks.

Urgh! Can't stand that guy!

(Just kidding )

[Tjay]

Understandable, and with the recent updates that has been on the Hannover Map it is very usable as basis for a scenario. I have recently been working on a scenario that is taking place between Rinteln to Hameln. It depicts a battle between a Canadian combat team and a motorized rifle battalion in a deliberate defence. The restrictive nature of the valley and the river in that area makes it quite interesting although the canadians probably wouldn't have been deployed this high up north.

Any plans to join a UKA session and actually get back in a tank to do some shooting in the immediate future? :debile2:

[Tjay]

It is partly inspired by Kenneth Macksey's book First Clash.

An excellent read - recommended to me by Crusty.

[Gibsonm]

Any plans to join a UKA session and actually get back in a tank to do some shooting in the immediate future? :debile2:

Tjay,

You do know he made that post on the 26th of April last year (or earlier)?

I suspect his situation may have changed since then.

[Tjay]

I heard of this Volcano guy before, man he really gets around. :sonic:

(that's what she said)

But others say that like J T Leroy, he doesn't really exist.