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Can we have some graphical gemütlichkeit, bitte?


mpdugas
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All this commentary based on a thorough 30 minute evaluation of the demo. I guess it doesn't take too long to see what it looks like. Everyone wants better graphics, its not a original idea at this point.

The foregoing an interesting comment by Sean:

I just loaded the new demo two days ago and ran it briefly to make sure it worked correctly.

In the mean time, to be fair to the game itself, I am reading the manuals that came with it. Then, when I have some familiarity with it, I'll give it a go.

So 30 minutes, at this point in my evaluation, is not inappropriate to make sure the game is functioning.

But I have played SB before. Most of my comments come from that and from watching videos of the current game itself. Reading my earlier posts would show that.

I've been very forthcoming about where my opinion came from.

But...I think it is entirely inappropriate for a moderator of this forum to comment publicly on my usage time of a product based on what should be private information between me and eSim, i.e. CodeMeter license usage time.

If eSim disagrees with a customer opinion, does it feel it has the right to reveal private matters about that person to disparage them?

Is this how eSim conducts its business?

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But...I think it is entirely inappropriate for a moderator of this forum to comment publicly on my usage time of a product based on what should be private information between me and eSim, i.e. CodeMeter license usage time.

If eSim disagrees with a customer opinion, does it feel it has the right to reveal private matters about that person to disparage them?

Is this how eSim conducts its business?

In other words, "sit there and listen to what I say, and if you say anything otherwise then it is unprofessional/bad business". Don't we all just love that.

Graphics updates are planned, and all normal people want them. Other than that, the message here is that you should spend a little more time with SB and you might see past your item of complaint.

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Hands up, please: Who of the readers of this forum is capable of working on this? If you're a programmer or a 3D artist, interested in tanks, can speak at least English and preferably one or more other languages, are a US or EU citizen and resident, and looking for a job (that you can do from home and which will get paid reasonably well) - please drop me a line by email. We might be interested in your services.

:)

There. I'm serious about it. I hope that the emails that I'll receive about it are equally serious.

If you are, please list your requirements a bit more specifically. I believe you have people on your own beta team who fit your bill.

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But...I think it is entirely inappropriate for a moderator of this forum to comment publicly on my usage time of a product based on what should be private information between me and eSim, i.e. CodeMeter license usage time.

If eSim disagrees with a customer opinion, does it feel it has the right to reveal private matters about that person to disparage them?

Is this how eSim conducts its business?

In your original post, you said you were trying to set up the demo. That is something you revealed yourself. The point was that maybe you should spend some time with it before passing judgment. Spend some time with it to maybe develop a more informed opinion of what has changed over the last 10 years.

The demo is on our time (gibson and I), not eSims. I actually agree with some of your opinions, I just disagree about the course of action required to get the desired result.

Any comments on the question I posed?

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Hands up, please: Who of the readers of this forum is capable of working on this? If you're a programmer or a 3D artist, interested in tanks, can speak at least English and preferably one or more other languages, are a US or EU citizen and resident, and looking for a job (that you can do from home and which will get paid reasonably well) - please drop me a line by email. We might be interested in your services.

2 years ago, I could have respond yes to the 5 questions. But i have not touch a 3D program for 2 years.

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If you are, please list your requirements a bit more specifically. I believe you have people on your own beta team who fit your bill.

Like I wrote, send me an email. I don't think that it belongs into this discussion thread. I don't want to deter a candidate by prescribing a specific skill set. Some skills can be learned or improved on the job. Ultimately one has to look at the whole package, and being experienced with the user's end of SB Pro and understanding the military and technical aspect and some of our procedures (e.g. beta test) is a definite plus which can eventually make up for some deficits.

But of course, a programmer should be good and experienced in C++ (Perl, Lua, or Fortran wouldn't be of much help obviously), and a 3D artist should have a portfolio that we can look at.

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2 years ago, I could have respond yes to the 5 questions. But i have not touch a 3D program for 2 years.

Would you like to do it again, and how fast are you with making a model?

I think that these would be the prime questions that you should ask yourself, in addition to the question whether you are looking for a career change this year, and what income you expect to make in a year.

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F4 is a unique story, I'll give you that. What you fail to acknowledge about WHY they have let the community develop it is that the cat is already out of the bag. The source code is out in the wild. They think its best to attempt to manage the mess instead of having competing groups of code hackers and modders and all the associated fun for end users.

So, now that example is out. Can you name any other sim developer that does what you have suggested? I venture to say you can't. Why would that be?

Like SB, I played Falcon from its inception, from version one. I am well-versed in the trials-and-tribulations of its story.

Falcon source code release is not the issue here.

The repeated referral to the how-and-why of the source code release, and the subsequent years of conflicting versions and so forth is but a red herring in the mix.

There is nothing that I have suggested in my comments that would lead eSim to repeat that trial.

No one can use BMS 4.32 without respecting the ownership rights of Atari.

Falcon's transformation is not unique, however.

There are other games which have benefited enormously from the user base involvement.

Another success story can be found in the post-production version of Grand Prix Legends. That user-base of very talented enthusiasts utterly transformed a good simulation into an extraordinary one.

They used a development structure similar to that of the avid fans of Falcon.

You cannot use the various iterations of GPL without owning the original product, either.

So, in answer to your question, yes, there are others who have tread this path. In each instance, the ownership rights of the original authors were protected.

What I suggested to eSim, and nothing more, is this:

the concept of distributed development might be of benefit to eSim if, and only if, lack of resources is the sole factor in the graphical transformation of this simulation.

The only difference here, in apposition to F4 and GPL, is that eSim is still actively involved in the coding of the simulation, which I believe is a benefit.

The community support team can now interact with the original author of the code as development proceeds.

This seems to me to be a GOOD THING.

Is it possible that eSim feels otherwise? Surely, they would not feel uncomfortable with a process that they controlled, would they?

Maybe eSim will become renown for developing a new, cooperative business model not seen before. The "power of the Internet" and all that likable, sale-able stuff. This is truly "opportunity knocking..."

I already see, in this thread alone, the stirrings of positive interest by your users. Events are overtaking the moment.

Hopefully, eSim will discuss this structure with others who have a more seasoned experience with it; I truly believe that there is much to be learned here, and enormous benefits to be realized. Their mistakes need not be eSim's.

Change is always a hard thing, particularly when you do not initiate it yourself. No growth occurs, however, without change.

So, I answer your question, even though I still find your public revelations about my demo license use to be inappropriate and offensive, particularly when you use it to disparage my knowledge of the product, as if those 30 minutes of setup time were all that I had considered in my proposal.

Perhaps you will answer my question?

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I think the graphics issue is coincidental- we all like graphics, we all want everything that you can possibly throw in.

Graphics sells, but graphics must correlate with the subject matter; it won't be the breakout into the consumer market when top PC game lists don't typically reflect higher fidelity military simulators- not even flight simulators, unless you're talking about Microsoft civilian flight products.

The games you tend to see are first person ego shooters, MMO arena battles and MMO RPG games, RTS action clickfests, platformer/action/RPG hybrid games. While I think most people here wouldn't object to more graphics enhancements, it won't mean that Steel Beasts will suddenly just explode into the mainstream consumer market. Simply saying "You don't know if you don't try," is of course easier said than done when it's not your money invested in this and could entail financial ruin or whatever.

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Well, I myself have made some suggestions to esim.

Some where taken into account, some ignored. Should I be pissed 'cos esim ignored my (invaluable ;- ) )advice?

NO.

At the end, if my idea turns out to be bullshit I can say: "ups sorry". While the esim guys have to put their source of income behind it.

They bear the risk...they make the choice.

From my expericence, everything can and will be disscussed here.

Who ever puts forward his ideas, should just keep that little fact in mind.

Ah, and don't feel bullied if you put up something on the forum, that has been disscussed in length before. People sometimes react in "Oh dear, this AGAIN!?" way ;-)

Search button in helpfull here!!!

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Is it possible that eSim feels otherwise? Surely, they would not feel uncomfortable with a process that they controlled, would they?

Maybe eSim will become renown for developing a new, cooperative business model not seen before. The "power of the Internet" and all that likable, sale-able stuff. This is truly "opportunity knocking..."

I already see, in this thread alone, the stirrings of positive interest by your users. Events are overtaking the moment.

Hopefully, eSim will discuss this structure with others who have a more seasoned experience with it; I truly believe that there is much to be learned here, and enormous benefits to be realized. Their mistakes need not be eSim's.

Change is always a hard thing, particularly when you do not initiate it yourself. No growth occurs, however, without change.

So, I answer your question, even though I still find your public revelations about my demo license use to be inappropriate and offensive, particularly when you use it to disparage my knowledge of the product, as if those 30 minutes of setup time were all that I had considered in my proposal.

Perhaps you will answer my question?

Wow mpdugas, that's some axe you have to grind.

Speaking of inappropriate and offensive, I wonder how eSim feels about your unsolicited and, in my opinion, condescending advice on their business model?

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Let me just repeat that:

Well, I myself have made some suggestions to esim.

Some where taken into account, some ignored. Should I be pissed 'cos esim ignored my (invaluable ;- ) )advice?

NO.

At the end, if my idea turns out to be bullshit I can say: "ups sorry". While the esim guys have to put their source of income behind it.

They bear the risk...they make the choice.

From my expericence, everything can and will be disscussed here.

Who ever puts forward his ideas, should just keep that little fact in mind.

Ah, and don't feel bullied if you put up something on the forum, that has been disscussed in length before. People sometimes react in "Oh dear, this AGAIN!?" way ;-)

Search button in helpfull here!!!

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Successful business practices speak for themselves. How much money did you make last year with your company? Did you break even or are you in the red? How many people do you employ? Do you operate on an international level or are you local and home grown? Come on man spit it out. I want to hear your sales figures for your company and your projected growth analysis for the next fiscal year.

You come here to this forum and tell the company that puts it up that they don't know what they are missing then you must know from your own personal business experience. Tell everyone who has read your posts here in this very public and free forum how to make big money. We want facts and figures from you, not opinions. Opinions are like...we'll opinions are like assholes and everyone has one (or knows one) Your own company's profit chart will do.

Edited by CalAB
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...

This is out of bounds. He may be taking things like a personal snub or something, but this isn't warranted. Where he might have preceived just some kind of personal affront, now it really is- and it makes the community here look defensive and just a clique for eccentric, weird people.

Edited by Captain_Colossus
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This mpdugas needs to get a life. I'm sorry but any dildo that types a few paragraphs about what he thinks is good business without coughing up examples from his own damn business life or how successful he is, is a wind bag dildo dreamer. Oh wait, a dildo is useful. Sorry mpdugas but you are a wig.

namecalling is childish, and doesn't really move the discussion along. i don't like this guy, or the way he tries to sell his points, but most of them are valid. Steel beasts does need a graphics update, and has needed one for the past 10 years.

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I trust that CalAB will edit his post, and that Cpt Colossus will retract the full quote from his reply either. Namecalling indeed is out of bounds per forum rules (but perpetuating it with a full quote (even when you're criticizing it) isn't exactly helpful either (assuming that we don't want to douse a fire with gasoline)).

I hope that I don't have to lock this thread tomorrow morning.

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FWIW - we all want better graphics - who wouldn't.

But better graphics may not enlarge the customer base of Steel Beasts as some here claim.

WHY?

Because at it's heart, SB is a simulation and for lack of a better description ( and one that epitomizes political incorrectness) the unwashed masses aren't interested in simulations which require actual thought and time invested learning the thing to ever be successful at it. All they want is a beer in one hand and a mouse/joystick/gamepad in the other and ohhhhhhh loook at the purty pictures and they be haaaaapy!

Been gaming with a PC since i bought a TRS-80 in 1979. I've watched the dumbing down of PC gaming starting in the early 80's until now when even my grandchildren ranging in ages 3 to 8 can play just about anything out there. My 4 year old has no problems at all with arcade style games and if I sit and help him with those that require a reading ability he can best those too. My 8 year old beat the one with a character named Snake I think in about a week.

Pretty sad but not unexpected. Some of you may remember when SB went retail back in - what - 2003 or so??? the rapid appearace of morons was predicted by not a few of us who were around then. Most of them lasted less than a month and then disappeared. Some - a very few - stuck with it and are now valuable members of the community. Guys like Brun, 12Alpha, Koen (I think he showed up around then) and many others.

The point is that good graphics may get the sale but it won't grow the community nor in more than the short run be of financial benefit to eSims. Because. When the word gets out that the graphics are great but you gotta have an IQ higher than room temperature to actually play it - well - no one else but those truly interested in a simulation of modern armored combat will buy it.

I can see that effect today to some extent. Up thru at least 2005 and I suppose maybe 2007 the SB community was much larger and much more active. I would go so far as to say it thrived. This place is different now. Not unexpectedly, the hardcore enthusiasts are, with just a few exceptions, what are left. Whether or not that's Good, bad or indifferent - I'll leave to the community to decide.

That said: My guess is that until the eSims accountants and financial analysts say to Al and Nils that spending money on a better graphics engine will result in a worthwhile return on investment that anything more than some itty bitty pieces of eye candy tossed out like crumbs to the birds in a park are all that's in the future.

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Personally I think both military and civilian customers would like the graphics to improve (I have a foot in both camps).

But I have noticed that while using it after say the introduction of 3D Infantry, the soldiers say "Oh the Infantry have improved" but after about a minute its back to questions about Infantry AI pathing, etc. or even worse comments like "Don't they know you don't wear the blue Australia patches in the field!" or "Why is that guy carrying a MG3 instead of a F-89?".

I think its just a case of no one is ever satisfied for long.

The OP complained about graphics but didn't say anything about the Infantry look better now than when they were sprites and from his comments he claims to have been a user for some period of time.

Similarly the commitment by eSim to upgrade to graphics engine hasn't been met by "Great, can't wait!" but rather "Why didn't you do it ten years ago!"

No doubt people are frustrated that this hasn't happened earlier, by why not wait and see what this delivers?

If its late, by all means complain.

If its "no good" (in the best subjective form of beauty is in the eye of the beholder) then I'm sure people will launch then but at least they'll have something to launch about.

eSim have announced a new graphics engine - lets see what it brings before the critique.

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