Default Engineer Section

[Panzer_Leader]

Hi Guys

I'm currently developing a scenario that involves engineers and I have a question: In real life, would an engineer section include an MG squad as per the default SB load-out or would you expect an engineer APC to only contain a squad which is the equivalent of the default "rifle squad". I appreciate the mission of an engineer squad is generally distinct from that of a rifle squad but I'm just wondering whether I should retain or delete the MG squad from the default M113 G3/Eng load-out or not?

Any guidance greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[Ssnake]

I think that at least one MG is indespensable for modern squads of any kind, be they engineers or logisticians. The question is more, do you have enough MGs if you look at today's Panzergrenadier squad (and I think the US forces have even more firepower at their disposal): MG3 with bipod, MG36 with bipod (roughly the equivalent to the SAW), PzF3, 40mm grenade launcher (similar to M203), and an assault rifle for everyone but the two MG guys. That's almost as much firepower as an infantry company in WW I had (with bolt action rifles), add to that the availability of artillery and air support.

So, yeah, I think that one MG is the absolute minimum of what one should expect for an engineer squad.

[Gibsonm]

Rhys,

Certainly for AS troops, Combat Engr have the same small arms load out as “pure” Infantry.

As our Infantry model is in transition that’s either one MG per section or two fire teams per section (each fire team with a F-89/SAW type weapon).

They may leave them in the APC and get out with other stuff (picks and shovels, etc.) but usually one MG at least is set up.

Construction Engr also have the same allocation but as they tend to be “line of communication“ troops they would definitely have them in a truck (unlikely that they would be in an APC to start with) somewhere and get off with ladders, saws, bridging kit, etc.

Other nations of course may vary.

[Panzer_Leader]

Thanks guys! I think that settles it; I will retain the default MG squad.

I was just questioning whether a section whose mission is different to that of line infantry (i.e. more specialised) would muster the same firepower but it appears they do.

[Gibsonm]

Well up until recently there was a bug where the specialists had too much firepower.

E.g. A TOW team would lug a TOW Launcher, ground mount, multiple rounds and a MG around (I think the FO team also had one).

[Grenny]

I think that at least one MG is indespensable for modern squads of any kind, be they engineers or logisticians. The question is more, do you have enough MGs if you look at today's Panzergrenadier squad (and I think the US forces have even more firepower at their disposal): MG3 with bipod, MG36 with bipod (roughly the equivalent to the SAW), PzF3, 40mm grenade launcher (similar to M203), and an assault rifle for everyone but the two MG guys. ...

MG36 was a nonstarter, its a MG 4 nowadays. (yepp, really a SAW-DEU ;-) )

Also a engineers squad would have some sort of sniper rifle: G-3ZF, G-22 or G-82, as an anti material rifle. They are used to shoot at mines/IED etc IOT to detonate them

[Panzer_Leader]

OK, next question: I'm using the engineers to lay a minefield but I only want the minefield to "appear" after XX minutes (to simulate the engineers laying the minefield from the beginning of the scenario). Using the mission editor it looks like minefields can only be set to appear from the beginning of the scenario, i.e. unlike an IED they can't be set to appear (explode) after X amount of mission time. How I've got around this in the scenario I'm currently developing is to use artillery to deliver a FASCAM minefield at the desired time. It's not elegant but it works.

Before I bake this into the scenario I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious about scripting minefields to "appear" during the actual scenario run-time. Advice greatfully received.

Cheers

[Tacbat]

Nope, you're on the right track. I used the same technique in the past to simulate engineers placing the mines.

[Panzer_Leader]

Nope, you're on the right track. I used the same technique in the past to simulate engineers placing the mines.

Thanks Tacbat; it's good to know I'm not missing something.

[Gibsonm]

Yes FASCAM is "close enough".

You can also set the logic up so that if the Engr withdraw or "die" before a certain time (i.e. leave early) then the "minefield" wont appear.

BTW: If you are asking the Engr's to lay these by hand it will take a long time and usually it will be a section of Engr telling a Platoon of Inf what to do (i.e. providing the expert guidance/direction/supervision while the Infantry actually dig the holes and lay them).

You should also have a few trucks nearby reflecting the minefield stores required (the actual mines, the perimeter, the signage, etc.)

Hand laying by a section is about 100 mines per hour and depending on the intent of the obstacle (Disrupt, Fix, Turn or Block) you need different quantities of mines and the size of the field is different too.

Have a look here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/20-32/chap2b.html#t2-3

Lots of variables but you should be OK as long as you don't have a section of Engrs laying a 1,000m in one hour.

If the scenario says that the Engr have say "Volcano" or "Shielder" type systems then it will be measurably faster.

[Panzer_Leader]

BTW: If you are asking the Engr's to lay these by hand it will take a long time and usually it will be a section of Engr telling a Platoon of Inf what to do (i.e. providing the expert guidance/direction/supervision while the Infantry actually dig the holes and lay them).

You should also have a few trucks nearby reflecting the minefield stores required (the actual mines, the perimeter, the signage, etc.)

Hand laying by a section is about 100 mines per hour and depending on the intent of the obstacle (Disrupt, Fix, Turn or Block) you need different quantities of mines and the size of the field is different too.

Have a look here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/20-32/chap2b.html#t2-3

Lots of variables but you should be OK as long as you don't have a section of Engrs laying a 1,000m in one hour.

Thanks Mark, some great pointers there. I already have the engineer section and they're completing the minefield for the first XX minutes of the scenario before withdrawing (I'll assume the infantry have returned to their "day jobs" at this point) but I'll definitely add a couple of trucks to represent the engineers' stores.

[Grenny]

One thing that was mentioned here allready. The "time limit" or "wirkzeit" of minefields.

What I remember from the "all arms engineer training" is that the minefields will detonate after their time limit is up.

Would be cool to have that in SB...after time-X al whole minefield blowing up :-O

[Ssnake]

You have. Check out the dialog box for Fascam fire support. Okay, so they don't detonate but just die silently.

[Grenny]

You have. Check out the dialog box for Fascam fire support. Okay, so they don't detonate but just die silently.

I know Ssnake, but from the day I learned that stuff, I wanted to see a minefield go loudly ;-)

Even if it's just in a simulation.(What's the chance of seeing it IRL?? )

[Tacbat]

Panzer Leader, if you look at "The Sentinel" mission in one of the contest folders, you'll see how they were scripted. Might be helpful as an example.

[Hank]

I was wondering ... can an engineer repair unit pull a tank from a swampy mud hole?

In the Byto sce's 2 and 3, I got two Leo's stuck in a hole. I tried and tried to get them out but its impossible; its almost like quicksand. They'll even slide sideways down into the hole.

(intended as humor ... but, just thought I'd ask)

[Gibsonm]

Well the short answer is "no".

You need one of the two recovery vehicles (M-88A1 MRV or Wisent MRV) to drag it out of the hole.

There are however repair vehicles that can fix broken equipment once it has been recovered.

Both of these are crewed by people who you'd call mechanics, not "engineers".

Army's definition of "Engineers" are the guys who blow stuff up or build stuff (bunkers, minefields, obstacles, roads, etc.).

So in terms of Engineering degrees - Army calls Civil Engineers "engineers" but Mechanical Engineers are mechanics (or in game terms the "Repair" or "Recovery" vehicles).

Bottom line if you want something repaired, park it next to a M-88A1 MRV, Wisent MRV, M113 Repair or Ural-4320 Repair, not a M113 G3 / ENG.

[Hank]

So, if I have a MBT stuck in a mud hole and I have one of these on hand:

Bottom line if you want something repaired, park it next to a M-88A1 MRV, Wisent MRV, M113 Repair or Ural-4320 Repair, ((not a M113 G3 / ENG)).

... I may have a chance of pulling it out of the mud? Or does it just repair things?

Just a simple question, not an attempt at determining who is an engineer and who is not. In my world if you have a four year degree in civil, mechanical, electrical, or chemical, and you have a license to stamp drawings, you're an engineer, a professional engineer.

Please excuse if I offended anyone with the previous post. No offense was intended.

[Gibsonm]

Perhaps I was unclear.

You need one of the two recovery vehicles (M-88A1 MRV or Wisent MRV) to drag it out of the hole.

You need one of these to pull it out of the hole.

Bottom line if you want something repaired, park it next to a M-88A1 MRV, Wisent MRV, M113 Repair or Ural-4320 Repair ...

Once it is out of the hole, parking the damaged vehicle (usually vehicles pulled out of rivers, bogs, holes, etc. have some form of residual damage) next to one of these four will repair the damage to it.

But none of these things are referred to by the Army as "Engineer units" or "Engineer Repair units" (i.e. definitely NOT the same guys who are laying the minefield as per the topic thread).

[Grenny]

to sum it up.

Engineers only may handle damaged vehicles, if the task is: Deny them to the enemy :-P