Shermans

[Alicatt]

In our town we have a Sherman Firefly as a war memorial and today I took a closer look at it, there are a couple of holes in the turret, one patched over so it might have been a casualty. I took my camera with me and took a few pics.

Tonight on the way back from the archery club I stopped off at the memorial in Leopoldsburg, it is a comemeration of the brave lads that went off to Operation Market Garden, sadly the plaques on the tank are defaced and difficult to read, anyway here are the pictures.

Hechtel-Eksel

[Alicatt]

Leopoldsburg Memorial

More pics on

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s47/Alicatt_photos/Sherman/

[Gibsonm]

In our town we have a Sherman Firefly as a war memorial and today I took a closer look at it, there are a couple of holes in the turret, one patched over so it might have been a casualty.

Hechtel-Eksel

If you mean the plate welded onto the turret on the left of the mantlet as you look at it in the photo, that's actually extra armour welded on to provide additional protection.

Refer attached:

[BrandonKF]

Tonight on the way back from the archery club I stopped off at the memorial in Leopoldsburg, it is a comemeration of the brave lads that went off to Operation Market Garden, sadly the plaques on the tank are defaced and difficult to read...

-sigh- Why can't folks leave such things alone? Either way, the Lord remembers all those who give their lives in the service of others... prayers for the living and the fallen are always heard by those who make them known.

[Alicatt]

If you mean the plate welded onto the turret on the left of the mantlet as you look at it in the photo, that's actually extra armour welded on to provide additional protection.

Refer attached:

Ah no, I don't mean those, but these

and at the rear of the turret

[RogueSnake79]

There are a number of Sherman tank memorials in Belguim. I think I've looked at pictures of all of them. It seems they all have holes in them, and storys to tell. There are several around Bastongne for obvious reasons.

If I had to guess, I'd say the damaged tank in your pic's was hit with a panzerfaust or panzerschreck. They've clearly jammed a chunk of steel in the hole from the inside, and put some weld on it. I would say a hole in that spot would have let quite a bit of water in when it rained.

Then again, it could have been a battlefield repair.

[Guest Killjoy]

Looks like she got hit hard. The one on the side looks like an 88 sized hole that's been filled in. If it is, it's come in at an angle, not side on. As for the strike on the back, it looks like that's where the rest of the shell tried to break through or it took another hit from something much smaller, like a Panzerfaust.

Could also be a bulge where whatever hit the back of it ran into the inside of the crew compartment and couldn't penetrate, but the damage on the outside of it looks more like frag damage from an 88 and the hole's been filled in.

Some of the smaller dents are Shrapnel damage or HMG rounds that have bounced off the hull.

Mate of mine is restoring and Irish Guards Sherman V. His is completely covered in Bullet strikes.

[Gibsonm]

I think you'll find a fair few of them (given the radial distribution around the holes) are actaully blast/melt damaged caused by the jet from the HEAT round burning through (which supports the earlier p'schreck or p'faust comment).

Also supporting that are the hit locations.

Unless the crew commander was an idiot, being hit by a gun round from 6 o'clock (beneath the turret bustle) shouldn't really happen, but being ambushed by a hand held infantry weapon (esp. if in the town) is far more likely.

[Guest Killjoy]

Now that you mention it, it does bare a resemblance to the Panzershrek... It was a bloody big one by the looks of it! :eek2:

[Gibsonm]

Well it fires, what, an 88mm projectile.

[SeanPatrick]

I was just watching an episode of "Greatest Tank Battles" in which a TC was describing having to move through the streets of Bastogne.

When the two tanks in front of him got hit, he had to back up. Not being able to turn the whole tank around, he swung the turret to the 6 o'clock position to direct the driver. He said he knew it was foolish, but he had no other choice.

His tank was hit in the rear of the turret (in the show's animation it was roughly the same spot in your pic) by a Jagdtiger. Inexplicably the round bounced off and they hauled a$$ outta there.

Amazing.

[Gibsonm]

So him turning in his hatch to see over the back (or looking out the relevant vision blocks) was too hard?

[Alicatt]

I took photos of the serial numbers on the tanks if any information can be got about them from that.

I will ask a friend in the Gemeente (local govt) he might know some one that has some info about them. We are a long way from Bastogne, about 140km as the crow flies. Tuesday was the first time I have been able to stop and have a look at the war memorial. Before the tank sat in the middle of the cross roads then it was moved to pavement beside the crossroads and then disapeared for a while and they made this new area for it a little away from the junction.

A little web search has turned up this info:

The crossroads in the village here was where a lot of people were taken and executed, there were execution poles set up there and villagers shot, then the poles were moved to a "secret" graveyard in the woods just outside the village that people from Brussels were taken to and executed then burried there, only since 1987 has access been allowed to the site and the bodies returned to the families.

The tank is on loan from Royal Army Museum in Brussels

http://www.klm-mra.be/klm-new/engels/main01.php?id=menu_links/startpagina

The site where the tank is, is called Welsh Guardsplein

[Guest Killjoy]

I was just watching an episode of "Greatest Tank Battles" in which a TC was describing having to move through the streets of Bastogne.

When the two tanks in front of him got hit, he had to back up. Not being able to turn the whole tank around, he swung the turret to the 6 o'clock position to direct the driver. He said he knew it was foolish, but he had no other choice.

His tank was hit in the rear of the turret (in the show's animation it was roughly the same spot in your pic) by a Jagdtiger. Inexplicably the round bounced off and they hauled a$$ outta there.

Probably would have been a Jagdpanzer.

A Jagdtiger would have turned that Sherman into a pile of smouldering metal.

[SeanPatrick]

So him turning in his hatch to see over the back (or looking out the relevant vision blocks) was too hard?

I thought the same thing. Especially considering the documentary went on to say that there were a lot of TC casualties for that very reason. (Another TC later recounted a story of an enemy sniper round piercing his helmet and knocking him out. Upon coming to, his crew told him to: "Get your head back out of the turret...you've got work to do.") As I've heard mentioned here before: unbuttoned is the preferred, although not "recommended" procedure for spotting the enemy.

Probably would have been a Jagdpanzer.

A Jagdtiger would have turned that Sherman into a pile of smouldering metal.

Well maybe "should have", that was the point of the story. The TC was astounded that the round had deflected off of an "unknown appendage" on the rear of the turret. I cannot vouch for his identification skills.

We are a long way from Bastogne, about 140km as the crow flies.

Yes well, just suggesting a possible similar scenario may have been the cause. As Mark said:

Unless the crew commander was an idiot, being hit by a gun round from 6 o'clock (beneath the turret bustle) shouldn't really happen, but being ambushed by a hand held infantry weapon (esp. if in the town) is far more likely.

[Ssnake]

Probably would have been a Jagdpanzer.

...or a StuG III, being one of the most popular armored vehicles of the Wehrmacht and oven overlooked despite being the "most successful" design when comparing kills to costs of procurement ... and similar in shape (though not size) to Jagdpanthers and Jagdtigers.

All we can really say is that the pock marks around the impact suggest a HEAT warhead.

Another TC later recounted a story of an enemy sniper round piercing his helmet and knocking him out. Upon coming to, his crew told him to: "Get your head back out of the turret...you've got work to do."

With our tank platoon leader's course we once made a battlefield tour with a WW2 tank veteran (commander/platoon/company leader). One of his opening remarks were if we knew the most frequent illnesses/occupational hazards of tank commanders. After a few seconds, he just said "Lead poisoning of the brain" and more or less left it there.

[BadgerDog]

For what it's worth ....

Unlike the the modern glass and crew vision aids used in the vehicles we have here in SB, an M4 Sherman, closed down and viewing just through the CC's cupola (or any of the periscopes), vision is so limited you wouldn't see infantry unless they were standing in the open about 25 yards in front of you. In fact, seeing other tanks at any distance was almost as bad a challenge, so we use to rely on spotters to send GRefs of possible enemy contacts.

The Sherman armored cupola glass is so distorted and the vision through it is so bad, you actually tend to pop the hatch slightly and try to peer out through the crack between the top of the hatch and ring.

One would never see hidden infantry in ambush, which is why we never moved through close quarters without infantry screens and skirmishers out.

Regards,

Doug

[Eisenschwein]

[...]

All we can really say is that the pock marks around the impact suggest a HEAT warhead.

[...]

But german Tanks in 1944/45 don´t use HEAT Rounds with the 75 mm and the 88 mm Guns. They use HE and AP Ammo.

HEAT Warheads mostly were used with 105 mm Püppchen, Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck.

My guess: This are hits from a Panzerfaust.

[Eisenschwein]

P.S.: I love the Internet ;-=

[...]This Sherman was originally located at the memorial at the centre of Hechtel, at the intersection of Hasseltsebaan and Kamperbaan; that memorial was inaugurated on 24 January 2006. It has been at the current memorial location since 2009.

In between it went into storage in the Leopoldsburg Army Base on Hechtelsesteenweg. It was not originally a Firefly, the turret was added later. It may have formerly been a range target. (Source: M. van Loon/N. Baumgardner/BHAR). Its serial number of 4060 indicates it was built by the American Locomotive Company in April 1943 (source: J. DeMarco/G104). It may have later been a dozer tank – it still has some of the dozer fittings (source: P.O. Buan/Shadock).[...]

Source: http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueId=1422

[Alicatt]

Hmm don't you love the internet, it was standing on the corner of Peerderbaan and Hasseltsebaan outside of the Dexia Bank and that was before 2005, I first seen it in april 2005, if you look carefully it is still sitting there on the site you linked Eisenschwein, on the south east corner of the junction. That sat photo is quite a few years old, there are traffic lights there and now there has been a roundabout there for more than 3 years. Where is the serial number located? the only numbers I can find are on the front and read

{G}E4186

1B1635

LO

The one in Leopoldsburg reads

E4151

B1782

LO {G} E 3

and a plaque on it reads

REALISATIE MIDDENSTAND

LEOPOLDSBURG

RESTAURATIE

LEOPARD GROEP

the photos of the numbers are on the photobucket page I linked to before.

[Eisenschwein]

Have a look here:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/serial.htm#M4/M4A1

[Hedgehog]

For what its worth.

They both look like HEAT round hits.

[Eisenschwein]

That´s for sure.

[Captain_Thunder]

The Hechtel-Eksel Sherman is apparently a M4 Sherman I used by the British.

Early models of the M4 had vertical volute sping suspension (VVSS), a welded hull, but had a three piece bolted nose and a narrow M34 gun mount. Later model Sherman Is had a one-piece cast nose and a wide M34A1 gun mount with a 75mm short-barrelled gun, retained the VVSS suspension and early style "pad type" tracks. All were powered by the original Continental license-built Wright Whirlwind R-975 300 HP radial gas engine.

This appears to be a later model M4 Sherman I with a Combination Gun Mount M34A1 and 76.2mm gun. The gun mount, gun and turret were probably retrofitted on this M4 replacing the narrow M34 gun mount and 75mm gun.

The wide M34A1 gun mount protected the gun and provided a place for a co-axial machine gun and a telescope. The early narrow M34 mount protected only the 75mm gun.

The vehicle was likely manufactured before 1944 when all M4 models were fitted with the new horizontal volute suspension (HVSS). The one pictured still has the old vertical volute spring suspension. The M4 Sherman I had a supporting roller on the top of the suspention bracket, some of the models were fitted with a roller offset at the back of the suspension bracket. This vehicle is the latter type.

The battle damge being debated appears to be that from some sort of solid shot, not a HEAT round. I have a book that has a pair of comparison pictures of armor plate similar to that of the Sherman damaged from solid shot projectiles and a HEAT round.

The damage from the HEAT round is round symetical and tapers inward from the outer surface of the armor plate to the penetration hole which is smaller in diameter. The outer edge of the HEAT round damage is slightly raised giving it a kind of small vertical lip that completely surrounds the entire point of damage. The armor plate in the inner tapering area of the damge displays a molten appearance from the effects of the HEAT round. The overall appearance of the damage is small, symetrical and very neat.

The armor plate damage from solid shot displays the same sort of external "scabbing" of the outer surface layer being shattered and torn away by the force of the round striking the armor. The holes created by solid shots that penetrated the armor are a jagged. The outer layer of armor that has scabbed off left a irregular jagged perimeter around impact point.

Even the shots that failed to penetrate the armor fully scabbed the external armor and produce a jagged hole in which the round is stuck.

After seeing these images, the damage on the tank in question appears to have been caused by some sort of solid projectile. The round may have struck from a slightly lower angle off of the front and side striking the turret at an angle causing the external armor to scab and damage the surface area behind the penetration hole. The unpatched hole in the rear of the turret also displays the shattered scabbed armor effect of a solid shot round.

Images of the damge test can be found in "Tank: A History of the Armoured Fighting Vehicle" by Kenneth Macksey and John Batchelor. p.127. Ballantine Books, 1971.

Info on the M4 Sherman I comes from "WW2 Fact Files - Allied Combat Tanks" by Peter Chamberalin and John Milsom. p. 55. Arco Publishing Co., Inc. 1978.

Wright R-975 info from Wikipedia.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Captain_Thunder
left out word