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Tonywjones44

Some infantry questions

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UK Armour is currently trying to establish a small group of 'experts' on infantry operations. (Two suitable masochists have been volunteered) :smile2:

During recent 'investigations' the questions that emerged were:

1. Should eny infantry in buildings be detected and displayed on the map as icons as soon as any friendly unit gets eyes on that building? (This does not always happen).

2. If not, what are the factors affecting detection? Anything do with windows and doors?

3. Do vehicles and infantry detect eny infantry in buildings at the same range?

4. Should AI PCs overwatching the infantry advance automatically engage any eny that open fire on the troops? I'm assuming Stay tactics (to stop them moving) and a suitable focus of attention on the objective.

Thanks in advance.

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UK Armour is currently trying to establish a small group of 'experts' on infantry operations. (Two suitable masochists have been volunteered) :smile2:

During recent 'investigations' the questions that emerged were:

1. Should eny infantry in buildings be detected and displayed on the map as icons as soon as any friendly unit gets eyes on that building? (This does not always happen).

Thanks in advance.

1st one is cleraly a NO! And the current situation with inf. in building comes from the somewhat simplified building and inf model in SB (me thinks).

IRL infantry in a building will be detected ONLY if they open fire or they are complete dumbasses that stick their head out of a window...

To the 2nd Question:

Given that the game time in SB does not really allow to prep a house for defence. The time the squad is inside would not have much effect.

(Note to esim: a marker for buildings "prepared for defence" would be cool. You know, hardened firing ports/positions, supported roof/flored==> more resistant to ENY fire and

more spots to fire outside.)

The things if: you hear tanks approaching...you lay low UNTIL they are within you weapons range.==> inside a house you should be nearly impossible to detect.

Other infantry would a different thing: They could get within spotting range without you hearing them and get you with your "pant down"

My p.o.v. in short:

Tanks/IFV should only detect infantry inside a building if the inf. opens fire.

Infantry should be able to detect in. inside if the get within spotting distance on foot(=silently).

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4. Should AI PCs overwatching the infantry advance automatically engage any eny that open fire on the troops? I'm assuming Stay tactics (to stop them moving) and a suitable focus of attention on the objective.

Well, depends on the ROE. Sometime they should open fire if the SUPECT enemy to be there(cowering fire).

Sometimes they should be only allowed to open up on a positive enemy ID...

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Informative answers for us civvys but I think original poster is asking how game mechanism works rather than RL workings.

I don't know much about how exactly urban fighting works in SB but from game experience, generally detection rate of infantries in building is very low unless they open fire or hostile dismounts try to enter the very occupied house.

And... I didn't think about using STAY tactics for static overwatch as "STAY" s are usually used for non-combat situations. Often a simple "HOLD" cmd or engage cmd will do.

But bottom line is you are not sure unless every single building in target area has been proofed with single HEAT/HEF round. (Arty strike is not lethal enough)

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Informative answers for us civvys but I think original poster is asking how game mechanism works rather than RL workings.

I don't know much about how exactly urban fighting works in SB but from game experience, generally detection rate of infantries in building is very low unless they open fire or hostile dismounts try to enter the very occupied house.

And... I didn't think about using STAY tactics for static overwatch as "STAY" s are usually used for non-combat situations. Often a simple "HOLD" cmd or engage cmd will do.

But bottom line is you are not sure unless every single building in target area has been proofed with single HEAT/HEF round. (Arty strike is not lethal enough)

Maybe I got it wrong...but I answered with Q it mind "how it should work" :-)

In SB right now the Inf. is pretty easy to spot. AI regularly spots troops in building at very long distances.

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Many thanks Grenny and Companion. And yes, I was really trying to suss how the infantry in SB work - which is not quite the same as in real life.

While playing a number of offline scenarios with a strong Mech Inf element, I've sometimes had eny infantry in buildings show up on the map at 2km, while on other occasions I've put a rifle platoon right outside the building without triggering any icons. And occasionally - by mistake - an AIFV too. . The only way I knew the eny were in there was because my troops refused to go in and sort them out.

Could it be that this 'lack of consistency' is down to 'conditions' written into the scenario by the designer?

So the first rule in UKA's provisional Guide to SB Infantry Ops is: Do NOT assume an absence of icons means an absence of eny. :)

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And... I didn't think about using STAY tactics for static overwatch as "STAY" s are usually used for non-combat situations. Often a simple "HOLD" cmd or engage cmd will do.

But bottom line is you are not sure unless every single building in target area has been proofed with single HEAT/HEF round. (Arty strike is not lethal enough)

I've tried Hold, but it sometimes doesn't prevent an AIFV from moving from the postion you've put it in even though the manual says it should only move to avoid ICM artillery. Stay isn't ideal but it seems 100% reliable in this respect.

And I've found that even a HEAT round doesn't always kill eny infantry in stone or brick buildings first time either. I'm coming to the conclusion that the only way to be 100% sure that a building complex is clear is by occupying the buildings with troops - house by house.

But I'm happy to be corrected.

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Further question: If you engage the individual members of, say, an eny rifle squad and kill only two of them, how is that reported in the AAR? There doesn't seem to be a message indicating individuals killed - only the whole squad - or not.

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Actually, every time someone is killed from that squad, the slightly misleading event description says that the entire squad was killed (suggesting that there are no further survivors, which usually is not necessarily the case (only in about one out of ten cases)).

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Actually, every time someone is killed from that squad, the slightly misleading event description says that the entire squad was killed (suggesting that there are no further survivors, which usually is not necessarily the case (only in about one out of ten cases)).

Aha. That explains why the AAR often comes up with multiple 'Destroyed' messages (in red) for a single inf unit.

Which leads me to ask (doncha just luv these noobs?) How many members of an HMG team - for example - do you have to kill to render it ineffective?

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Apparently all of them:

How good is this game? It’s so good I just had to share this anecdote from a scenario I played last night. I was commanding a US company against a Red battalion sized attack when one of my screening M2A2s was disabled in retreat and overrun by advancing T-72Bs. Infantry had deployed from the stricken Bradley and when I jumped to the infantry section from the map I was just in time to watch the single remaining member of the section, in open ground, pop up and take out a T-72B with a flank shot from his M136 AT4! Watching in amazement he took cover, “reloaded” and then destroyed a second T-72B from the same platoon with a second flank shot! That pretty much ended the threat of a Red breakthrough in that sector of my front. Now, if only we could award Silver Stars!

:D

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Apparently all of them:

:D

Wow. Don't tell the Brass or they'll be reducing infantry sections to just one man in the interests of 'Streamlining, efficiency, and making sure the taxpayer gets the best value for his hard-earned dollars' :eek2:.

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The more members of a squad are out of action however, the more reluctant will the remaining members be to open fire.

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The more members of a squad are out of action however, the more reluctant will the remaining members be to open fire.

Useful info. Thanks Ssnake. Doesn't sound if Panzer Leader's AT4 operator was too reluctant. I'd have him on my squad any time. :)

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no viable tactics for realistic infantry combat

seems not to be introduced in the game

may be improved if this would be a much more realistic simulator similar to the current clashes

hopefully one day be corrected

is a perfect game only tank against tank:)

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no viable tactics for realistic infantry combat

seems not to be introduced in the game

may be improved if this would be a much more realistic simulator similar to the current clashes

hopefully one day be corrected

is a perfect game only tank against tank:)

Well, some basic aspects are allready modelled so far.

They stay in formation(well there is only one :-( ) and lay down when under fire...thats at least something.

On the other hand, show me one real time game where infantry tactic is actually modelled!

(apart from cases where every single squady is controlled by a player)

I know of none.

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Well, some basic aspects are allready modelled so far.

They stay in formation(well there is only one :-( ) and lay down when under fire...thats at least something.

On the other hand, show me one real time game where infantry tactic is actually modelled!

(apart from cases where every single squady is controlled by a player)

I know of none.

in real-time gaming is not fully modeling today

combat mission with perhaps some simple things achieved a good result

ability to run crawl or hunting are useful and get a greater immersion in the esenario

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Well, some basic aspects are allready modelled so far.

They stay in formation(well there is only one :-( ) and lay down when under fire...thats at least something.

On the other hand, show me one real time game where infantry tactic is actually modelled!

(apart from cases where every single squady is controlled by a player)

I know of none.

Don't shout heresy too quickly but Operation Flashpoint did a reasonable job of handing infantry controlled by the AI. Playing it on PS3 I remember on more than one occassion the AI pulling a hammer and anvil tactic against my puny squad on multiple occassions. Ambushes all the time. Good use of cover and concealment.

On the other hand OFP sucked when it came to vehicles.

Put OFP and SB together into one game and one might very well have as close to perfect a combat simulation as one could get today without having to be shot at by the real thing.

Can't have everything I guess.

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no viable tactics for realistic infantry combat

seems not to be introduced in the game

I accept that. But infantry can be useful in SB scenarios so I'm just trying to get my head round how the AI logic works so I can use them to the greatest effect.

The 'most unrealistic' aspect of inf (IMHO) is that they aren't equipped with hand grenades so can not assault buildings occupied by the eny. This would one of the things on my wish list for any future upgrade. But as you say, SB is primarily a tank training simulator, so this 'game' aspect probably isn't top of Ssnake's list. Nor mine. :)

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But infantry can be useful in SB scenarios so I'm just trying to get my head round how the AI logic works so I can use them to the greatest effect.

Well why not setup a test scenario for UK Armour to play with one person playing the red infantry and the other guys blue?

Ask the red guy to do things (so you have some control - compared to the AI) and then see how various blue tactics work?

Just a thought.

Edited by Gibsonm

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On the other hand, show me one real time game where infantry tactic is actually modelled!

Reminds me of the original SOCOM. My squad and I are hiding in the bushes while an eny patrol walks by. I don't intend to kill them (there's no need, not part of the obj.) My mates have other plans. At the worst possible moment one of them stands up and [sometimes] opens fire, giving away our position and leading to an intense firefight in which we all die.

Fun times. :)

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